Ann Barbour (00:49)
So welcome back to Unmasking and β I have the honor and privilege of having a really special person who's recently come into my life and shares his wisdom and we toss and play with a lot of great things. Michael Williams welcome first of all. And β thanks for taking the mask assessment and it was no surprise that you came up
with the β overachiever. And I'm going to not give your story away, but share that Michael is really one of the few people I've met who've actually led without a mask and had an incredible run at it and was able to β lead and work and change an environment β from his heart.
And also β with a version I say when I hear you talk about your work at the hospital, it was with play. And so β I believe that the overachiever mask was a piece of that pie. And I look forward to hearing what your thoughts are on that. But first, welcome. And instead of bios, I think we're going to do with what's your favorite way to make people feel when they leave your presence?
Michael WIlliams (02:10)
I I personally get enjoyment from watching other people, β a little sense of little bit more weightiness when they walk away or a little bit more substance because of something we talked about went to a place that maybe they don't normally go.
Ann Barbour (02:30)
Yeah, I can imagine it.
Michael WIlliams (02:30)
especially
when I'm leading a team and I'm introducing a concept or something like that and when the light bulbs go off and and They begin getting it. I get so much joy
Ann Barbour (02:42)
amazing and I know you do it quite often so thank you thank you from from those of us who get to enjoy your presence and the ability to be inspired so that's amazing. β So the overachiever were you surprised to see the overachiever come up as your number one mask?
Michael WIlliams (02:58)
No, I wish I was. No, β it's been a label that's been attached to me probably from the very first time I took any kind of leadership assessment or personality assessment. So yeah, it's.
Ann Barbour (03:00)
Hahaha!
Michael WIlliams (03:17)
And it is what it is. I remember when taking the Enneagram for the first time, it wasn't any big shock that I was a three. And if eight could be a wing, I'd have an eight wing. there's a little of that side. But fortunately, that eight stays in the closet most of the time. And it's a three.
And so the overachiever just, you know, it's just another way of labeling that, that me that Enneagram 3 personality.
Ann Barbour (03:45)
Yeah.
Do β you remember, like, I think ultimately the overachiever is obviously our doing energy and our way of showing up out in the world in service and servant leadership. But do you remember who taught you the difference between doing and being? Do you remember being taught that?
Michael WIlliams (04:06)
I don't remember being taught doing and being until I was way advanced into my adulthood β and was in a leadership program where we took a year and went through in detail the hero's journey, Joseph Campbell's hero's journey. And in that I became more introduced to the idea of, hey, you're not just doing all the time. You can just be.
can just sit with yourself and be. It's such a hard concept to put into practice, not to understand.
Ann Barbour (04:45)
Right, right, exactly. do you, growing up, your, I know a little bit if you want to share about your father, like where did the belief, I mean, what lives under the doing from where you found purpose at a young age? Like where did you...
Michael WIlliams (05:05)
I had a father who came from a, my parents were really young when I was born. They had just turned 20, like a month or two before I was born. So they were basically probably more mature than I was at 20, but they were having to grow up pretty fast. And my dad was finished in college and he was one of the...
Ann Barbour (05:20)
Yeah
Michael WIlliams (05:30)
He was the only one from his whole family that went to college and went past high school. So. β
He had inside him this burning β that I don't know if it was a, he felt like he needed to prove himself or it was just that he wanted to climb out of the poverty that he was raised in. And so β he entered the ministry and then it became a life of service, but service blurred with doing, I would say. β
in a service as an occupation, not service as a, although his heart was in it. But from that start, early on, there was that factor. He was my hero and still was till the day he died. But I saw certain, certain lessons in him that I attached to. β
course leadership he was leading, he kept leading and going from one church to another bigger and bigger and β and then at one point he decided to switch careers and move into teaching and counseling. wanted to impact young people through counseling in public schools and β so I watched him do that and then my mother was had finished her education just after my dad and β became a teacher and β
But along the way, this is early life lessons that were imparted in me, β good and bad. And this is where a lot of it comes from, I believe. β My brother was born three years younger than me and he had a congenital handicap. this was back in the late 50s. And so at that time, the medical care was not what it is today. so they... β
He had to be in a special chair and wheelchairs and things at home and all that. And I remember my mother saying, you know, your brother's going to require a lot of our time and attention. So we need you just to be a good boy and do good. And that locked in and that label was just put on my forehead. I'm a good boy. β And so don't do anything to get us in trouble. Don't do anything that disappoints us. And so I believe that's where.
the loud messages got imparted. β And then I can remember carrying all the way through when I was in medical school and my dad had gone back to get a PhD, because obviously he was overachiever. β And I don't know that he ever took that mask off, but he... β
I'll never forget, I walked in and I finished my first or second year of medical school and he had gotten his grades for his PhD program. β
and he showed to me and he had a 3.85 grade point average and he looked at me and said you need to beat this in medical school.
Medical school was, you know, it's a different animal. β It takes a little bit of effort to get a 3.85 in medical school. People do it, but it's certainly not the run of the mill. so anyway, but it was always that challenge, you know, β intention, that energy to where you are now is just okay.
Ann Barbour (08:43)
I don't know, but I believe you.
Michael WIlliams (09:09)
and there's much more that you need to go after. anyway, there's a lot there, but that's, there's that. And then there's one last thing I'll share is I remember being four or five years old. I don't know why I have this memory, except it lasted till absolutely today. My mother taking me to the pediatrician.
Of when you're a kid, you care about is am I going to get a shot? I mean, you don't care about anything else, you know? And so I'm kind of sitting there anxiously. I remember her taking my hand, rolling out my fingers and showing them to the pediatrician and said, he's going to be my surgeon. Now I was four or five. And from that point on, my 10th birthday, when kids were getting all kinds of toys and stuff.
I was given a real legitimate stethoscope. And so the message was there, you're going to medical school. And I got on the treadmill and stayed there all the way through. then ended up practicing medicine for almost 30 years. β never questioning. β So anyway, that overachiever, that good boy.
that we already know what you're gonna be. And so that really defined a lot of the boundaries and parameters and the way my life was lived for much of it. And that's why the lessons of doing versus being didn't come in until much, much later.
Ann Barbour (10:50)
I mean, you think of your dad and the situation he came with, you know, with poverty and immigrating and like it makes so much sense that, that, that working hard and then it was working. like, of course that was there. Um, but what I couldn't help but notice when you were talking about, like when your parents said things to you, you're the way you hold presences is you're a deep listener and that you, but you, and the responsibility you took with that was.
Like it felt, it feels like a very serious commitment. if I'm listening to you, I'm like, you're like, yes, I'm in, yes, I'll do Like, and I can almost imagine what it was, you know, what your little boy was like is like, yeah, that's the way to go. I love you, of course, got it. And I just appreciate that. also had the, whatever my parents said, like I was, I never questioned either. β And I think that,
What's interesting is as I've gotten older is I probably have, I have more of a disruptor, a little bit of a fire starter in me than I ever acknowledged as well. Like I didn't really allow her to come out because she didn't seem, she wouldn't be of service because I didn't know how to use it with kindness, with compassion, but with truth as like a truth teller maybe, even being the true disruptor maybe, you whether it's just with the people I love and or.
in environments where it's a social cultural situation. Yeah, yeah.
Michael WIlliams (12:17)
Sure, sure. mean,
most of the times you're brought up with that parental respect, and so you find a way to go with it.
Ann Barbour (12:30)
Yes. And I found that I'd be curious about you. This is jumping a bit. β But like for me, when I had the three boys and they didn't share that essence of who I was.
Michael WIlliams (12:42)
You
Ann Barbour (12:43)
β
That is where some really crazy behavior by me came out of my parenting. β Even recently someone said, you must have been such a good parent. Your kids are lovely. And I said, it depends on how you define good parent. And they go, what do you mean? And I said, well, to be truthful, if it's because I made no mistakes and they just look good in the end, like I'm definitely not one of those. I go, my kids have gotten where they are because of all the mistakes. Like if you can make the most mistakes possible and you know.
Michael WIlliams (13:05)
you
Ann Barbour (13:12)
try to make them in my, like for me, my ego, not, know, anyhow. yeah, just the whole, like, you're not an overachiever, what? Like, you know, you're gonna say no to me and you're gonna think of your own thoughts. It has been, well, humorous is the exact word of that. so, β and I know you have two girls, daughters, and were they, or were your girls like you, or were they, did you have a disruptor in the crowd?
Michael WIlliams (13:27)
you
I do.
had one that β wasn't an active disruptor, β but she was a behind the scenes disruptor. for example, there's a joke in our house when I would say no matter what, her name's Emma, would say to Emma, she'll ask me a question, I'll say you need to go right, and she will all the time go left, every time.
And so here we are. She's in her mid 30s with three kids of her own. I still know now if I think she ought to go right, I'll tell her to go left and she'll go right. it's not a stubborn thing. It's just an unconscious thing. It's just something that's deep in her subconscious that she's an independent.
Ann Barbour (14:26)
Good, nice deep pattern.
Michael WIlliams (14:33)
but I just love her to death. She's an independent, it was an independent little kid and precocious and it's turned out to be that that's much of what she still has and is as an adult. yeah, it's, and then β both my girls are pretty independent. I mean, they're, they have their own minds. I'll put it that way. In a really good way. Yeah.
Ann Barbour (14:54)
Yeah, yeah, a
really good way. I think that one of the benefits, and I'll go David Brooks, second half mountain, we'll keep ourselves in the second half. But one of the beauties of seeing yourself in cycles of where the overachiever mask has served you to get to outcomes that you desired. What can you tell us about where you are in your life right now? Like in this moment?
I think we've discussed that still having purpose and meaning and a direction that aligns is really important, β no matter what age or stage you're in, β But I'm just curious how maybe the mask or what you might want to say about how the mask has β shifted or do you feel like you've surrendered it? Do you feel like it still serves you?
Michael WIlliams (15:51)
it.
don't really.
actively think I try to use it any longer. think I have. So there's been a shift in my entire journey. was reading about this this morning. Actually, there's a book by a guy named Parker Palmer called Let Your Life Speak. And he was talking about how when we're born, we're born into a set of expectations of which those expectations, much like what I just already spoke about with my parents, are expectations that take you
β far away often from your true self and we start living in those expectations. And so by my and what your life
needs to become and this is what I can relate to is it has to get on a journey to true self and get away from that and so β I started that journey probably
not that long ago, several years ago, β of understanding I don't really need that mask anymore, β but however, it still comes out in certain situations. And those situations are when I walk in a room and there's people I don't know, and if that message is coming in, like you need to impress these people kind of thing, β that used to be the time when it really came out. Now it's...
of a situation where usually I would go in and I go, you know, where I am now in my life, you like me or you don't. And I'm not here to, you know, win your love and approval. I'm just here to be me. And then hopefully there's a way where we can connect. β so therefore, because in that, so I did some real deep work a number of years ago. I went to a place in,
San Diego and spent a week there. What it boiled down to was just some real intensive group counseling, group therapy with six other people from all over the world that I'd never met, obviously. And so in that experience, I learned that the culmination of lot of my behaviors was clearly labeled as something I would have argued strongly that you're completely nuts to label me codependent.
that I was labeled codependent. And as I started looking at the people pleasing and all the things we do as overachievers to win love and
you know, the people pleasing, the perfectionism, the trying to control the outcomes of something. So you manipulate things to get them to come to a certain outcome. β And so once I became aware of that, and that was just several years ago, just not that long, and I began intentional on this journey, which is how we came together of...
getting real intentional about understanding, taking that journey that Parker Palmer talks about through the light and the dark to understand β where is your true self, who is your true self. And so that's the journey I've been on. That came with β meaningful relationships that I used to not have, β deep... β
Ann Barbour (18:59)
Mm.
Michael WIlliams (19:09)
I'll say relationships where people saw me as I was, not as how they wanted to see me. then the idea that then I took it, even though I had a deep Christian faith for my whole life, really wasn't a part of me until not too long ago where I really began to go deep in the spiritual journey. And that has been part of...
my transformation of understanding more and more who my true self is. So I'd say meaningful relationships β that I probably blocked before. β
Ann Barbour (19:50)
And do you
think that the mask was part of the block? Like, do you feel like... Yeah.
Michael WIlliams (19:54)
yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. β
Yes, β I've been I've been often. You know, I don't know what's what what the reason is for, but there's been several situations that I've been chosen to go into environments where I was completely out of my element or in my mind untrained for, and I had to find a way to perform. So there's been several of those. And. β
And so finally, you get tired. You get tired of carrying the mask. You get tired of, β you know, you just get, it's exhausting, β quite frankly, after a while. And so I finally just got sick of it and realized, okay, this journey to my true self is truly part of my, is part of my hero's journey. And so the first thing is you gotta, you know, not the first thing, but one of the things you do is you need to burn the boats.
And so beginning to, it's slow burning, but getting, trying to get rid of the mask has been my, it's been, cause it's kept me from my true self.
Ann Barbour (21:01)
Amazing. you know, if you were to give advice to your younger self, now we always say that assuming the younger self would listen, I'm not sure my younger self would have listened to the advice, but for the wise people out there that actually would listen, what would you say to yourself in hindsight? β
Michael WIlliams (21:24)
say listen more to that tug that you feel inside.
when you know that what you're about to do is not authentic to who you are. And maybe you don't even know who you are. so what I would say that, but in order to get on that path, for me, you have to begin to live towards that tug. Cause the tug is there, it's internal in it. And it tells, you know, now I feel that tug and I go with it. I don't even question it.
Previously I would try to shove it away and because it didn't people wouldn't if I went with that people were not gonna want to be around me or not one of them respect me or think that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard if I said that or did whatever the tug is and β So now I just say what I want to say β and do what I want to do and β So that's what I would tell that younger person
There is some wisdom to be learned from experiences. But in order to help you get down the road faster, would definitely tell you, you got, what I consider this tug is the tug on your heart. You've got to listen more to your heart and less to your head. And I know that said a lot, but I had to learn to live that way. Cause I was living out of my head for years and years.
Ann Barbour (22:54)
Me too. And I think about all the reasons we wore all the masks. I mean, you actually named several of the other masks. know, the people, please, are the perfectionists and stuff like that. And for you, you know, now at this point in your life, like I know for me it was fear of loneliness and fear of not being enough, β safety is usually in the room. β Anything specific that you were looking for as you wore the masks and anything that...
Michael WIlliams (23:16)
Sure.
Ann Barbour (23:23)
has shifted for you to feel the opposite of that.
Michael WIlliams (23:28)
Well,
the funny thing is my secondary mask on the assessment was a rebel. And that's a mask I'm actually much more proud of than hold onto.
Ann Barbour (23:41)
β boy, was
fried, β Let's go back to the Enneagram. β
Michael WIlliams (23:46)
because that reflects my true you know the the number one I don't know you call it number one sin of a number three anagram is deceit because you can go into any room I did this many times and you can flip the chameleon chameleon on and you can deceive everybody in the room that you're something that you're really not and
That too is tiring. But the irony of this whole conversation is that the rebel is truly deep inside me to go against the grain, to disrupt, as I was told one time by a mentor, you are made to disrupt, innovate new things that are better and build them. so β many times you have to be that one that's gonna go the other direction or that one that's gonna swim against the...
against the current and that's not always appreciated β but that's a way of feeling, a way of doing that I'm actually very comfortable in, very proud of and it doesn't reflect the overachieving because there's plenty of people that are not happy with that kind of.
Ann Barbour (25:07)
Yeah, we share this because one of the things I suppressed all along was this kind of disruptor, truth teller, you know, piece of myself. And what I've actually been playing with lately is β I can be very binary, like that's an aspect of me and that's an aspect of me and they're not friends. And really, like lately, what I'm trying to do is actually become whole, right? Like come back to my full self instead of compartmentalizing and siloing myself, just like.
People silo businesses, we silo ourselves and only show the one part. And I think I've been scared to show that part. As a woman, she includes anger and things that aren't considered socially and culturally accepted. And so what would it be like to, but not at the sacrifice. mean, my good girl, she's part of who I am. I would like to be kind. I'd like to be compassionate. And so what does it look like to not think of it in terms of either or?
and the and, but again, I think that is way more easier than said when you've spent, you know, as many years kind of hardwired into the one aspect of self and to not want to just swing the other way and like light a bunch of things on fire that don't need to be lit on fire and then cause harm. So like the part of me that doesn't want to cause harm doesn't really, she's like, well, how does that look? Or how do I know I'm not going to cause harm? And the answer is, is if it's connected to your heart and you're well-intentioned.
how it lands is not my responsibility, right? But that's been a very, very, very hard thing to learn. And I think for you, knowing the success you had, I believe your rebel has been in the room maybe more than your kind of inner dialogue would allow it to believe because you couldn't have achieved what you've achieved in some different challenging environments without it.
Michael WIlliams (26:58)
That's interesting the way you said that in the room. I think you're right because it's just a natural way, I think. Good or bad, sometimes it's a burden, sometimes it's a gift, but good or bad, I can look at situations very quickly and assess and see where this is gonna go β several steps down the road. And so much of my rebel comes out in that disruptor spirit.
by trying to say, know, hey, don't go any further this way because that's a dead end that leads to a cliff and there is no way out. you know, so I need you to follow me this way so that, you know, we can get to a better place. But I'm always, you know, I just love people and, you know, movies and...
and things like that that demonstrate that kind of spirit. β
You know, and especially if it's thinking in a completely different thing and think something that's not ever been considered before. Or it's been considered and disavowed. You know, for example, one of my very first favorite movies, β modern movies has been Moneyball. Because I love how Billy Beane, who had the lowest performing team, took a team and with a completely different thing that
baseball had completely disavowed and β thrown out as quackery β and reinvented baseball. β that is what just fires me up. β It's not the overachiever, if you've ever seen that movie, the overachiever at the end of the movie would have taken the offer to go to Boston.
for the big salary. But the rebel, I can't even keep the energy inside me. It's just like the rebel wants to do it where it's hard.
where people say it can't be done there.
Ann Barbour (29:16)
Mm.
Michael WIlliams (29:18)
So that's why I hold on to that, I don't hold on to the mask so much. It's just really who I am. It just happens to be coming out as a mask because sometimes it's so much a part of me.
Ann Barbour (29:32)
Right. And do you feel like when you suppress any part of yourself, it, it, and haven't acknowledged it, I know for me, if I don't, I mean, I think of all the times I've caused harm by suppressing the part of me that I thought nobody wanted to see. And then it came out sideways anyhow. Like there was no real suppressing. think I'm sure you've heard it where you like are trying to hold all the beach balls under the water and then, and then at some point it just explodes. that, that, that, that over time I've learned the pattern of
Michael WIlliams (29:57)
That's right.
Ann Barbour (30:03)
okay, how do I lean into this without causing harm? Or sometimes not even thinking that much and just being like, just or no. No without an answer, no without an explanation. And sometimes words give too many opportunities for argument. then I just, people I love want more from me. And I was like, it's just a no. Listen, that's been a hard lesson learned. β
Michael WIlliams (30:23)
That's a healthy place to get to.
That's
why I'm constantly knocking down the people pleaser. That's right.
Ann Barbour (30:34)
So how does the overachiever these days say no? Because no would be one of the things like, you know, what is the signal for you? it?
Michael WIlliams (30:43)
It's just now where I'm super, I'm hyper focused on what I'm here to do. And I live with a sense of urgency every single day. I've got only so much time left in my life and that's way I spend all my life, not just now. And so I have things I want to accomplish, things I feel called to accomplish. And so β that's what I'm going to focus on. And anything that gets in the way of that, I raise a flag up and go.
First, I raise a flag up and say, hey, to some of my team that assists me with some of that. And I'll say, I'm not doing that. Take that off. know, β so and so wants you to, I'm sorry, but I'm not going to do that. β You know, sorry, not sorry kind of thing. So more and more I do that and more and more I have taken ownership where he's used to.
Ann Barbour (31:29)
Yeah. β
Michael WIlliams (31:39)
you know, part of that overachiever mask is you carry this big burden that people are going to think you're sloughing off if you're not there working, you know, 20 hours a day. And I used to, I mean, it was so ridiculous when I had my own home medical groups that I had started by myself, grew them to fairly large size that I was the one taking more call than everybody else intentionally. And I could have had to, I had to, I had the control of the call schedule, so I made it up, but I put myself on more.
so that no one could ever say I was loafing or slacking.
Ann Barbour (32:15)
There's your new nickname. I'm going to call you the slacker. β And you know, one of the things I'm thinking about as you're talking, because I know that the overachiever in all of us, know, it's out working, out doing so that you can prove whether it's to prove that you're better or prove that you're the one willing to work the hardest. So the rest of you better work as hard as me. I mean, there's there's so many levels of it.
Michael WIlliams (32:17)
Yeah, that's right. Yeah, so... β
Ann Barbour (32:45)
And I'm curious, and I understand your clarity on you have so much time left and you want to make the most of it. And do you believe that play is a part of that energetically and where your impact could be greater, the lighter, like I have a story that the less of the overachiever that you carry, the more lightness you have and the more lightness you have, the more you can play in environments.
β and really have impact because people feel that and you know it's that old quote of people are going to remember how you made them feel in the end of the day and so that's to me that's like a guiding light of one of the most important things I'd be curious what your thoughts are on
Michael WIlliams (33:29)
You know, as an overachiever of one, I guess, in the past, you never learn how to play. play does not play a role much in your life. so I remember one time being told, how can we try different, you try these different hobbies, but you don't stick with anything.
Well, one thing I love to learn, so I was just trying to learn new things.
and
But I couldn't find the fun in it. It was always about, like, perfect examples, I decided I was going to learn how to fly. So I went to flying lessons and got my private pilot's license and then I would go, but it's really not fun. I can't find the fun in it. And other buddies of mine would say, β how much they loved it. They just want to be doing it all the time.
Same with golf, I play golf, you know, okay. But I don't see hanging out here for five hours on a Saturday kind of thing. So I can get stuff done. β
Ann Barbour (34:42)
Yeah.
Michael WIlliams (34:44)
I'm still looking for that. And I think there's still elements of that lack of play and the elements of the overwork because of, mean, this thing about sense of urgency that's been going on since I was 20. It's not a new thing. β I just always had it. And
So I think play is definitely one thing that I need to, it's not a thing to do, it's just a thing to begin to find a way to appreciate. second of all is...
That concept, I didn't hear this concept until, believe it not, until about three years ago from a mentor of mine. That self care is not selfish.
So I've still got the disease that I'm still trying to break out of, but...
You know, for example, I'm, I'm way overdue on a vacation to the point that human resources called me the other day at the, at the place where I run, run the, run the organization and said, Hey, you've got three weeks of vacation that if you don't use, there's just going to go away. You're just going to lose the complete value of it by August 31st. Okay. So, so now I'm going to.
taking some vacation in a few weeks.
Yeah, play has been hard for me β because I never gave it the value that it really deserved.
Ann Barbour (36:23)
Does it feel uncomfortable? Like what is it about play or your belief about play? I mean, it doesn't sound like growing up there was room for it because the stethoscope at 10 and just the messaging of needing to be really, you know, tight and stuff so your parents could take care of your brother. Like it all makes sense, but you know, for me,
I was curious about when you used the sense of urgency because I think I was like, that makes sense. But is it still useful to you now? Do you feel still? I know with limited time, time is precious. But is sense of urgency required? Revered?
Michael WIlliams (37:09)
Well, it's a sense
of urgency now to...
be with people I care about and to be with people I want to be with and that's not the way it was in the past. so, and now, you know, I recently, after a year or two of continually being encouraged and almost like beat on the head to wake up to the fact that people thought I should be able to begin creating with writing.
β So I started writing and writing is a place where when I start I can kind of just go into a world all alone and β just explore things. And so that's been β something. And so it's interesting lately and you know, β I never took time for creativity at all. β My creativity was at work. β
with how I did things and how I introduced things. And just recently, my parents passed away, β
You know, my brother and I were going through things β and all that and β I began to realize how many creative things I had done that I didn't know. β I used to do a lot of woodworking and so I would create, β I created this rocking horse and they still had it and I hadn't thought about it in years. β I did some stained glass and so I realized, wait a minute. β
there's some creativity running through, there's a vein of that running through who I really am. And so now I think that's reflected in the work I do every day. There is a sense of, don't really, I mean care what you think if you work for me. I care deeply what you think. But mostly I care what you think about the way I treat you. I care less about what you think about... β
why I think this is the right direction. It's more about β are you willing to go and if not, we talk about the questions you have about why not go this way. β so that's a lot of, I realize too that creativity is in my daily work for the most part.
Ann Barbour (39:35)
very much with people the way you can help them change it and turn it direction. But in listening to all the things, the woodworking, the stained glass, there's a canoe in a story. Am I right? So what I also am hearing is that you've really mentally paid attention to your overachiever, but you have been playing all along. just haven't, you maybe not have felt it as an act of play, but I wonder, in hindsight, can you see a little bit of it as?
Michael WIlliams (40:03)
I can now. I can definitely see now and it sure helps for me physically to get away. To get to a place, whether it's in a wood shop or whether it's in a place where I can write or if it's in a place of beauty. love creation and what the elements of that no matter what. So I love being in different environments and β experiencing all that.
So there's a spirit of play even though my play is maybe more serious than other people's play.
Ann Barbour (40:37)
We still have more time to work with that.
Michael WIlliams (40:43)
I know you will. β
Ann Barbour (40:43)
β
I have some ideas, β right? Because, and really to me, I'm playing if I'm laughing, I'm playing if I'm connecting, I'm playing if I'm having the kind of conversations I'd like to have, which is what I appreciate about you. know, they're just, that is play to me. That is my version of play. It's certainly not everybody's and I'm not everybody's cup of tea and that's finally become okay with me, because I'm like...
You've got to go find your people because I'm looking for mine. And I happen to like a little more diversity. Anyhow, it's pretty fun. So I am trying to think about, we've had fun. Let's see, what do you think about, oh gosh, I had a couple questions. I'm just trying to say if we can, the most interesting thing I found where I was looking at shadow patterns for the overachiever.
Michael WIlliams (41:13)
Yeah, that's right.
Ann Barbour (41:39)
And then I was like, that one's me, that one's me. performance based on self-worth is the one that jumped up to me the most of thinking about it. And of course, the most important thing about self-worth is how we all think about ourselves individually. But it's interesting that youthful, that impact of be a doctor, do this, do that, everything on the outside world.
and then getting to this second part of life where we're integrating, there's a whole nother person to lead, a whole nother way to lead, another way to integrate. And so β what do you hope for?
to integrate your kind of brilliance in your rebel. Like how do you see the rebel of you dancing with the overachiever? Because my belief as your creator from that place is a pretty exciting place to be. Does that feel where you feel like that crossroads at the moment?
Michael WIlliams (42:41)
I do. β You know the thing that always came through in me was...
And I think these came from my parents in a very good way. And that was in the house I grew up in, you know, there wasn't any, even though I grew up in the South, there wasn't any racism. wasn't any, β there was a sense that we, β because of our faith, we had a deeper care for people. Not that only people with faith have deep care for people. I just don't mean to imply that, but I mean, that's where our center is from. And so it was about
that willingness to help other people. β
And so there's something deep inside me that the, you know, a number of years ago I was doing some work on purpose and my purpose kept coming back to this thing about, uh, fighting for the invisible. Uh, and that's stayed with me forever. Fighting for the invisible people, the people, um, you know, for example, when I came to the organization I'm with now, um,
You know, it's a large organization, there's 15,000 people. And it wasn't any big innovative idea, but I thought, why don't we have a living wage here? Why don't we have a threshold level that takes care of these people that are struggling to live? And so at first I got a lot of pushback because, that's going to impact my department. I said, you know, at end of the day, we're going to do this. And so we did it. And β of course, now other people have copied it.
But that's okay, that's the point. But so there's that theme of fighting for the downtrodden, fighting for the invisible. And the second thing is I get ecstatic when I can see that something I said or did, no matter how small it is, had impact. And so... β
and just my weekly team meetings, if I can introduce a concept or an idea that somebody latches onto and if they take it for their own and they take credit for it, great. I could care less. The point is I did something, I introduced something into that space that hopefully will change the way people think about something going forward. so those two things are mixed all in my purpose and my way of being every single day.
And so where I am right now is there's a sense of urgency to put out these blogs and to write a book. I'm working on a book about the concept of what it means to live an unshaken life. that didn't mean an era of free life by any means. But you know, just the concepts of my concepts, of course, from the stuff I've lived through.
So it's a little bit of a memoir, but a little bit of a hopefully thoughtful philosophical book around what does grief really mean? What does it mean to have true meaning? How do we speak to others? You know, this is one I know I'm kind of going on, but this is one of the things that...
Ann Barbour (45:58)
Well,
I'm letting you go on and on because I can see you like thinking out loud and thinking about all the things you want to do with the time you have left.
Michael WIlliams (46:10)
Yeah, that's, you know, I used to...
Ann Barbour (46:11)
And so maybe
someone will listen and be like, I can help Michael with that.
Michael WIlliams (46:16)
I was just talking about the consistency through my life that now I'm just becoming more aware of. When I was taking care of patients, I was always angered and frustrated by physicians that didn't take the time to communicate with people. And sometimes just to hold their hand and talk them through a difficult time. that's what's, so maybe in some way or another, there's play. Because I do get fun out of
Ann Barbour (46:42)
Yeah, infusing the work in play seems like the dance that actually is the one you're headed towards, and I can't wait to see what it looks like. Amazing. Well, thank you for the gift of time today and your wisdom β and smiling and laughing with me about β the journey of life.
Michael WIlliams (46:49)
It is.
It's an absolute joy and it's always a joy to get to speak to you. So thank you for taking us down this road and being the guide on this.
Ann Barbour (47:09)
Excellent
and cheers we're going to get more play in there. All right have a great one thank you so much.
Michael WIlliams (47:15)
Yeah, that's right.
Thank you so much. Appreciate it.
Curt Cronin (47:24)
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