Ann Barbour (00:49)
Hi and welcome to another episode of Unmasking. We are here with my dear friend Katie who we are going to discuss the Rebel Mask today. And before we dive in because I'm so excited because my people pleaser first child rule follower turned 57 is dying to know more about the Rebel Mask and how it serves you and somehow how it gets in the way. But for the listeners today,
We can learn all about Katie. She's going to give us a bio at the end of the show notes. But most importantly, β Katie has just a lovely energy. And so I want to know from you, Katie, what is your deepest hope when people walk away from a real live interaction with you, how they feel?
Katie Nydegger (01:35)
Hmm, I think I think I would want them to feel like I think everyone has a bit of a rebel inside of them and β And they're a little bit afraid or fearful that that part of them is not lovable And so when when others walk away from me, I want them to feel like that part is especially loved
Ann Barbour (02:01)
Lovely. I think you do a great job at that by the way, personally. I'm inspired by your rebel, just so you know. Okay, great. Well, it's always fun to know where you, have you always felt the rebel as a part of your persona? How did it show up in your family? Like, when did it start? When did it show up in life?
Katie Nydegger (02:03)
It's cool.
Bye.
Yeah, so I have always felt like there was something about me, β even since I was a child, that maybe should be hidden, you know? That when I was taught what to do or what not to do, either by parents or other adults or religious leaders, β my takeaway from it was like there's something natural.
in humanity and in me specifically that's wrong that should be fixed and hidden or β so I think like ever since I was a child there was like this questioning of like am I allowed to trust these thoughts and feelings that feel like maybe in some ways opposite of what I'm being told is okay or is it something to get rid of and
and something to pay attention to as dangerous. So yeah, I've always had like some part of me that's like, is everyone around me feeling the same way as, know, am I the only one that doesn't think or feel that what I'm told I should? Yeah.
Ann Barbour (03:38)
And it's hard to know with everybody wearing their masks, to know who's people pleasing, who's feeling what, because we all, especially when we're young, to be fit and to make our parents happy. We wanted to do it right. β When was the first time that your rebel was like, I have a story that it's like, I don't play by those rules.
Katie Nydegger (04:02)
β
Yes, let me think about that because honestly there's a large part of my life it feels that I didn't trust my rebel even though it wouldn't stay quiet I still wasn't really letting that part of me lead the way I was silencing it in order to belong in the places and spaces that I really wanted to so yeah
Ann Barbour (04:32)
Let me reframe
then, because I feel like that's not the right place to start, just kind of tracking you. How did that feel to hold that down? I think I've heard before, maybe even Jim Dutmer say, hold the beach balls down, a part of you that you didn't want to be seen. So how was it like that for you? I'm thinking of growing up.
Katie Nydegger (04:33)
Yeah.
Hmm. Yes, it was tiring and β
Ann Barbour (05:01)
Mm-hmm.
Katie Nydegger (05:05)
Yeah, it just felt like I was masking in pretty small ways, I think, for most of the time in order to just stay safe and belong in the places that I wanted to. I think a great outlet for me was imagination because if whatever rebellious sort of experiencing I'm wanting to have is one step removed, so either through books or
through β movies or music. If someone else is doing or saying what I want to do or say, at least I'm having some of that experience. So a lot of the arts were ways for me to sort of feel at home in, or at least feel like I was not alone in sort of the ways that β my rebel was coming up. β And in adulthood,
stand-up comedy was a big place for me to feel that release valve on some of those feelings, yeah.
Ann Barbour (06:11)
That makes so much sense and that's so awesome because that's such a great, what great tools to be able to not feel alone, especially in the digital world that when you think about everyone talking about being alone and feeling alone and that yeah, right? It's in the stories and it's in the songs and it's in the, and it's not always the connections that we think it's gonna be sometimes. I mean, it's like a little distant human connection or I know we talk about nature and stuff like that, but that's really, really... β
And so she served you a lot of ways when you're younger and in terms of you got to be felt and seen. Well, I mean, she didn't serve you, you were aware of her.
Katie Nydegger (06:56)
Yeah, yes. And I would say one of the first times that it came, like that I noticed that it had, that that voice had something of value was β being raised in a really religious family and culture in general. And as I was a teenager and having deep conversations with friends who did not practice the same religion and...
would just they would describe to me what it would feel like for them to be β in this friend group where everybody seems to think and feel the same thing about religion and spirituality and they did not and β I got the feedback a few times that I was able to have conversation that felt a little more open and nuanced as to sort of what the experience of others could be in that
situation even though I was a part of the group that they felt like it was hard to relate to or that they felt like it was hard to be seen by.
Ann Barbour (08:02)
So that's an interesting piece of you because β my experience as a people pleaser were the rebels were scary, right? They threatened my safety, you know, like, and yet we're all looking for safety in different ways, right? And so that's fascinating. What do you think that it was that you brought and can bring as a rebel and also bring that safety feeling to someone to not feeling...
judged or just the ability for them to be fully seen even though you are different because I think that's super alive these days.
Katie Nydegger (08:35)
Mm-hmm. I think openness and curiosity about the experience of others β not being threatened by people who think or feel differently. β Meeting that with excitement and curiosity is super powerful. And then I think sort of ironically, that made me maybe a little bit more threatening to the group I belonged to because maybe I wasn't
adhering as strictly to sort of non-negotiable beliefs because I had more curiosity about the experiences of other people. Yeah.
Ann Barbour (09:19)
I just, that has to be hard, Because the people you love are in the people, in that container where it has some strict rules or expectations and yet it's so natural to be curious and it's so natural for some of us, I think. It's just so natural to want to know more, to grow and do all that stuff. that's β interesting. Is there anything more to say on that? Like, I'm just curious. Like, am I missing something on that?
Katie Nydegger (09:42)
Right.
Hmm, that's good question.
I think that the part of me that could feel β unseen by the group that I belonged to really wanted to see others and β listen to the ways in which they felt like they didn't belong.
Ann Barbour (10:11)
Yeah, and so do you think that, you know, how we're all listening for different things and so we're trying to see it in someone else and we're trying to do a good version of it, you know, in order to, I know that I do the same thing. Like I want to understand you, I want you to feel safe, I want you to feel comfortable and that, it's when I'm at my best, right? When I'm at ease, I can be super open and comfortable, but you know, if I'm tired, if I'm run down, β
any type of things that stir irritability, which apparently happens pretty easy if you ask my family. and then I can be easily at threat in the same moment.
Katie Nydegger (10:43)
We are.
Yeah. my gosh.
Yes. Or if like I have the slightest hint that you're not reciprocating the openness, then mine can go away in a second.
Ann Barbour (11:05)
Yeah. And do you think that we just have all of that protector in us and that it just shows differently like that, that, you're not doing it the way like at the level I'm doing it or with reciprocity at a level that I feel is maybe worth the investment. don't even know. that's all the things that I come up with when I'm having an experience of someone is like, gosh, there's a lot of output and there's not a lot of coming back. But
Do you think that the when you're
I just find it, I find you fascinating and complex because the curiosity and open and the rebel. So what are the, what are the current containers of rebel that you enjoy and how have you practiced bringing that natural part of you that you suppressed for a while growing up?
Katie Nydegger (12:00)
Hmm.
know if container feels like the right word for me. think that I mean, and maybe it doesn't even sound that rebellious. But β for me, it's just allowing my truth to be spoken and heard, even in situations that feel a little bit scary. β It took me a lot of growing into adulthood to trust
Ann Barbour (12:08)
Okay, bye.
Katie Nydegger (12:34)
my voice and β yeah and not feel like I could do damage by just saying what felt true for me and so that can feel as simple as that sounds it can feel very rebellious and brave in in certain situations like especially in the relationships I care most about when something I think or feel seems at odds with what they think and feel β that can feel.
Ann Barbour (12:43)
Mm.
Katie Nydegger (13:03)
risky.
Ann Barbour (13:05)
Yeah, it's actually a constant risk for that, right? How does that show up? I know we share a love of household of men. Katie actually has one more than me. She has four boys. Wait, five. Am I miscounting? Are we counting your husband or you have sex with the husband? Oh yeah. Yeah, you're up. Yeah, okay. You have a house full. Do you have any rebels in the family?
Katie Nydegger (13:16)
You see?
Yes.
Six with the husband. Yeah. Got a house full.
I wonder. It's interesting to see how my kids are as adults, you know, because yeah, I definitely had rebels when they were kids. And because my husband Danny and I β work really hard at just allowing our children to show us who they really are. β It's hard to like, even have a rebel in that kind of a container, you know? So I would say, yeah.
Ann Barbour (14:02)
Hmm.
Katie Nydegger (14:05)
They are rebellious in small ways, just in ways that they don't maybe conform to the culture that they grew up in, but no rebels within the family because there's room for almost anything here.
Ann Barbour (14:22)
That's beautiful. What about, let's go backwards in time, because I have this idea of my little girl, Ann, know, junior high Ann and Katie being like, I'd be like, you know, what was your experience in junior high of other girls? It can be boys too, because I like playing with the boys, the sports.
Katie Nydegger (14:42)
I have always deeply loved friendship and sisterhood. And when you pinpoint junior high, I'm like, is that a disaster? Because I'm riddled with insecurity and trying to like control my friends and feel safety as their best friend. It's not good enough to be one of the friends. I want to be the favorite friend. And I still do have that.
But I understand that part of me a little bit better. I'm not gonna like give you a rug burn just to like really drive the point home. know, I just, yeah, as a junior high girl, I was really sort of learning boundaries around how much β influence and control I could have over others. I was working at it, man. Yeah.
Ann Barbour (15:38)
Did you find that in that environment you were able to? Did you have a lot of influence?
Katie Nydegger (15:47)
No.
Ann Barbour (15:50)
Wait, okay, let me ask a better question. Maybe,
would other people think that you had a lot of influence? No?
Katie Nydegger (15:55)
No,
no, and I had plenty of friends. just didn't, I wanted to be everybody's only friend, you know? Like when other people did stuff without me, I was like so at the effect of being left out and, you know, toying with like giving somebody the silent treatment and then the pain of them not even knowing, you know? So, yeah.
Ann Barbour (16:18)
I do, I do.
All right. Now I know we're jumping, but it's kind of shifting for me as we experience it and I'm listening to you. Cause now I'm like, all right. So it's really this inner rebel, this inner rebel of becoming fully, fully known, seeing trusted, β not knowing if anyone's going to have any of those experiences of you and learning to more than dip your toe in, but show up in those spaces that way. β
Katie Nydegger (16:36)
Thank
Ann Barbour (16:47)
How has that, as an adult, fast forward now, how has that served you and what you get from being able to be a healthy challenger with people who just love comfort and keeping that open, curious? Because you really are having to hold, I have an idea that is holding a gap of this space of discomfort and also desire for connection.
Katie Nydegger (17:14)
Mm-hmm.
Ann Barbour (17:16)
you know, can you talk to that at all? for, because people as we experience fall to victim really fast when challenged. and so yeah, I'd like to hear more what you had to say about that or what your thoughts are.
Katie Nydegger (17:25)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Can you say
it like, I feel like there was too many words for me to understand what you were asking. No, it's not that you can't, it's just like me, yeah, anyway. Yeah. β
Ann Barbour (17:36)
Too many? Too many words. I often do that. Too many words. In one way, yes. We'll play the good old one out breath. In one
out breath, I would love to know how your rebel navigates your relationships these days with more authenticity and truth. as a result, how do your relationships feel?
Katie Nydegger (18:03)
Mmm.
Hmm.
Yeah, I would say that being this age,
I enjoy the luxury of maybe finally believing the people that love me when they say they love me. β That feels like it's taken a long time for me to relax into believing that and that the I love you isn't β full of
a bunch of unspoken conditions. β And so then that allows like my rebel honestly can feel like the sort of shadow part of that comes out when I'm afraid that how I think and feel is somehow not okay. It's somehow going to create separation or division from the people that I want to be connected to. So
A lot of my life, the rebellious part of me β was the shadow part. And β now reaching sort of a more mature age, that still can come up, but I'm also feel so loved and supported by the people in my life that β the rebel has some space to relax also. Yeah.
So there's, and for me, so there's a piece there with like maybe being able to hold space for people with different viewpoints β and not feel threatened by that. But yeah, there's like, there's so many ways to use the word rebel that sometimes I'm not quite sure which one we're pinpointing, you know?
Ann Barbour (20:10)
Well, I think that's what we're dancing with actually in this moment. I think
we've hit on a couple of them because I think I had a story on what kind of rebel you were and just not, I mean, not knowing you, but not knowing you at all the levels. β So I'm trying to adjust to, to like not having like those stories and kind of just honoring what, what your version of rebel is. Because I think that we hear, we hear words so easily and I come up with my story. I mean, it's just kind of whole fact story belief system.
Katie Nydegger (20:29)
Mm.
Ann Barbour (20:40)
And the joke's on me as always, but I find it funny and fun to play with as well. β So anytime you want to redirect our Rebel discussion, you just feel free to jump in and do that. I welcome that. I was thinking about β some of the superpowers that your Rebel brings is like, specifically in group dynamics. How do you...
Katie Nydegger (20:54)
great.
Ann Barbour (21:10)
What is?
not only being seen and valued,
So many people play the good person role and they never speak their full truth, right? So then we end up having a lot of niceties, but we end up stuck in energetic patterns. And so I'd love to hear your experience from your side on that.
Katie Nydegger (21:33)
Thank you. doing group work has been so beneficial for me when it comes to β playing with different ways of showing up, you know, because what I've seen in so many situations is that I'm having an experience in the group and
it's pulling me out of presence because, or I'm allowing myself to be pulled out of presence because there's been some sort of resistance or aversion to something that's going on. And so my mind is kind of working on that β in the background and I'm not focusing on what's actually happening in real time. And so I'm so grateful for
the group work that I've been able to do because it has encouraged just like, blurt what's coming up for you. If it's pulling you out of presence, let's hear what's going on. And β as I've played around with doing that, I've gotten the feedback over and over again, somebody else in the group was having the same experience and they just didn't want to say it. And so they were grateful that I did. And it's not necessarily that I need that every single time, but hearing it
on a number of occasions has made me feel more emboldened to be willing to do that.
Ann Barbour (22:56)
How do you know when it's in service and when it's... My controller would like to know how you know how to do it so well because I find it, A, it's refreshing, A, it jolts the group into, oh, I was drifting because I was trying to overhear me, be a good person, be a good team member, blah, blah, blah. And yet, you know...
Katie Nydegger (22:59)
I don't. I don't!
Ann Barbour (23:24)
In those moments I find that I'm not fully alive either. I'm drifting, you know, and so, β so yeah, so any, β anything else on what you want to say about group that are encouraging tools to use? Because β I think of you as pretty clean at saying some no's. Would you, do you feel that way? Cause I'm gonna check my stories now with my whole rebel. Yeah.
Katie Nydegger (23:45)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Yeah. In fact, I've gotten that feedback and it's not something I knew was a skill or even recognized as unique to myself. β And it's funny because now that I'm thinking about it, I remember in my earlier adulthood listening to Oprah talk to somebody about...
being asked something on the spur of the moment and kind of providing this person with some tools to like We just are so the people pleaser and all of us just wants to say yes β of course I want to help you you know especially when somebody's asking for help and she β Gave this woman the tool like I'm gonna pray on it first. I'm gonna take it to Jesus you know and I just remember that learning that in adulthood. I didn't use those same words, but
sort of allowing for the pause, β kind of respecting your β energy and what you really want to give. And that to me was a great lesson because I really did take that to heart. And in this stage of my life, a lot of times the ask was, will you watch my child? You know, because there was a lot of trading childcare. And I remember sitting with that and thinking like,
I would never want someone to watch my child that doesn't want to be with my child. And from that place, I felt like even though there was some discomfort in saying no, I also felt like it was the most in service for me and for the person who was asking it of me.
Ann Barbour (25:32)
or wishes she was better. You know what I mean? Like how many times I said yes and meant no and I was out of integrity of myself and I didn't want to be in situations, whether it's, I mean certainly taking care of someone else's child, really, like they're honoring you with a beautiful responsibility and you're just doing it because you should. I mean it's that whole should thing and yeah, so that is...
And do you feel like you have, like when someone's in need and they ask you something and you say no, do you find that they move on pretty quickly? Like our big fear is that it's gonna be something bigger than, my big fear, I should make up, I'll tell you about, like my fear is that if I say no to people, like I could lose them. Like it feels like that. And...
Any suggestions for someone who needs to practice saying no more and wants to but doesn't know how?
Katie Nydegger (26:30)
Mm-hmm. I would say practice as in almost anything. Practice in small ways β before maybe cutting off what feels like β a big ask. Although big asks are very easy for me to say no to. It really just depends on the relationship. And is the ask... I know that maybe this sort of like weighing and balancing this kind of a thing, but...
it does factor into it for me. Like, is this the kind of relationship where this ask feels appropriate? And for me, honestly, I love to be wanted and needed. And it is the highest compliment in most situations for me to be called upon by somebody who is in distress. I love to be the superhero that's coming to the rescue in a big way, in big grand gestures. Like, I will show up.
and I will take care of your children and I will make them dinner and I will take somebody to the hospital. I will stay at the hospital with you all night long. I love like emergency energy. I'm like, ooh yeah, interesting, I'm in.
But it's like in the smaller day-to-day asks where it's like, can you pick my kid up from school every Thursday and keep him for two hours? You're just like, no. So it's like, I'm definitely owning the part of me that like loves to come to the rescue and gets energized by an emergency. And then,
Ann Barbour (27:53)
Yeah. β
Katie Nydegger (28:07)
feels drained by like what feels like an unnecessary ask or something like that. β But back to your question about like how do you learn how to say no and protect your boundaries? I think just pausing. I think pausing even though it can be uncomfortable for the asker and the responder.
β I think in our culture we're just so used to getting a fast response that a pause can feel like you regret asking. β I think it's valuable to pause. Really valuable.
Ann Barbour (28:47)
a wise one who, a friend who said, you your pace is sacred. And like my nervous system, I'm a tourist. I love to go slow, right? I like to take my time. I like to season and things. And I have a lot of people around me. A lot of my boys like to go fast. They like to be busy. They like to go at their pace. And I find that β the better, and then what would happen is I would say yes, and then I was like.
Katie Nydegger (28:52)
Mm.
Ann Barbour (29:14)
the volcano mom where I had suppressed and then, you know, totally lost it. And you're right, but the awkward silence from the pause is really fun to play with because you notice your own self. I mean, I noticed like...
Katie Nydegger (29:26)
Mm-hmm.
Ann Barbour (29:32)
What are they thinking? Are they feeling bad? I immediately go outward naturally and I have to remember to come back. So then it even takes longer because I have to go through that multi-step process of returning to self before I can really get in tune. And I don't know about you, but once I get up and running, my doer, she just runs on autopilot. She doesn't even realize she's saying yes to things she means to say no to.
Katie Nydegger (29:37)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yes.
Totally.
Ann Barbour (30:00)
You know, I think that that's hard.
Katie Nydegger (30:01)
And I think along those lines too, something that's interesting to consider is that a lot of the kind of asks that we are saying yes to are coming from in here, you know? So it's, I find it much easier to check in and say yes or no when someone else is asking the question. And it's, am...
I'm shoulding myself all over the place in very unconscious ways in my family and showing up to serve and provide in ways that I think are needed and maybe even expected. And that is the place that I allow myself to get run ragged is by not checking in with myself and the ways that I'm showing up that aren't actually being asked of me. But I do wear myself out in that situation for sure.
Ann Barbour (30:56)
Yeah, and I think, well, I don't know about you, but for the boys at the age that they are, I'm kind of having fun. It's not that I'm not getting rid of any of the roles that I've played, right? I have no interest in getting rid of them, but there are jobs within those roles that I no longer wish to be responsible for. β
Katie Nydegger (31:19)
Yeah.
Ann Barbour (31:21)
And so it's been really funny to witness their response to me being like, so we're going to do it differently this year. Dinner is a, you know, concordavide and, you know, grocery store included, dishes included. Like it's not just, you know, do your grilling part and sit on the couch and watch me do the rest of it. And so it's just, you know, so for, for, so the shifting and as we are always in constant change and evolving status. β
Katie Nydegger (31:26)
you
Ann Barbour (31:48)
How, do you have any future vision of, I mean, I rarely do the future self because I'm not very good at it, but do you think about where you'd like to be with who you are as, what do you want to do with your...
Now that you're rebels online, right? You're in a rebel and you're boundary setter and your things. And obviously, you know, it's always we're always doing something to like work with it. It's not complete. But but what would be fun for you? What would be fun for you? Is there anything that you're like, I'd like to try that next or stand up comedy? I mean, I'm literally like I'll throw it all out there. Like put yourself in a position where, know, you get to play full out something like that. Have you considered anything like that?
Katie Nydegger (32:07)
Mm-hmm.
Hmm.
I am in a stage of life where I am open to growing into whatever is next. And I still feel like I'm very much in the stage of being open and seeing kind of what crosses my path or my field of vision to see what I kind of want to follow or grab onto. Because yeah, having just relocated.
you know, less than a year ago and it feels like there's been a lot of endings and beginnings and I do feel like I'm in a stage where I want to welcome something new and that feels exciting and I don't have a whole lot of β guidance in this moment as to what that's going to be or look like.
Ann Barbour (33:20)
which can be a blessing and a curse all at once.
Katie Nydegger (33:22)
Yeah, absolutely. feels like open and interesting. And then it's also like, how about just a few, like a few guideposts to be like, point your wagon in that direction. Because being open is great. Yeah, exactly. Like, are you willing to take the first step? When you said stand up comedy, it's like, I have thought about that a few different times. And it is like,
Ann Barbour (33:32)
few weeks.
I I'm only asking for one step in that direction. You're not.
Katie Nydegger (33:50)
is so terrifying to even imagine it. Just terrifying. So, and this is the part of like, myself that I can really criticize and is the one that like, loves to consume and it can be afraid to create in lots of different places, you know.
Ann Barbour (34:10)
Hmm.
Does the rebel get seen in the consumption or is it a place where it may? I mean, this is probably a stretch, but...
Does it get hidden when you're sort of less? I know less now, but in that kind of consumption mode, because I have that want to keep learning and growing. But then at some points I wonder, am I committed to that or am I actually hiding? And it's such a thin veil for me between sometimes I'm just tired and sometimes I'm just tired and I want to hide.
Katie Nydegger (34:47)
Hmm.
question,
you know, when I was taking the assessment and like answering the different prompts, I think what led my and it's I don't know exactly because I didn't create the the model but I think what led my answer to be rebel is like a strong resistance to authority and a willingness to disappoint other people maybe and to do what I want versus what is expected of me.
Ann Barbour (35:02)
Yeah.
Katie Nydegger (35:16)
And so it's not that I don't feel like I have a great rebellious streak where it's just like an aggressive, β larger than life persona that takes up all the space in the room. It's just for me, feels like this, like you've pointed to this inner like I will receive a lot from others and then sit with it and especially though from a position of authority.
or a strong persona that's like, this is the way that it is and this is what you need to do. No, no, I've lived a lot of my life that way and I have a hard, hard no to that.
Ann Barbour (36:01)
Seems like a strong red flag for you, like certainty. Yeah.
Katie Nydegger (36:05)
Yes. yes.
yes. I don't trust anyone who's certain. No. Get away.
Ann Barbour (36:12)
Me neither.
And it's really
funny because, were either one of your parents like certain? Like did they appear like they knew the answers to everything?
Katie Nydegger (36:25)
Yes, until their children started exhibiting. Not necessarily exposing them, but just like they were certain about the way things are and things would be until their kids grew up and started deviating from that. And then it was actually quite beautiful to watch how much bigger the container became because their kids couldn't possibly be outside of it.
Ann Barbour (36:29)
exposing them.
Hmm, that's a beautiful way to think of it.
Katie Nydegger (36:55)
Yeah.
Yeah, it was a beautiful thing to watch and there's so much gratitude for my brothers who seem to be the ones that were willing to actually overtly say like, actually no, this part of what you've taught me isn't for me. I had those thoughts and feelings but was so afraid to lose the love or respect of my parents that I didn't reveal that part of myself initially.
Ann Barbour (37:24)
you
Katie Nydegger (37:25)
So watching somebody in my family do that and to see how love is bigger than all of it was really, yeah.
Ann Barbour (37:34)
So wait, remind
me, you're one of how many?
Katie Nydegger (37:37)
I'm the third of eight children.
Ann Barbour (37:39)
You're the third of eight. Okay. And then which siblings were good at like around you? Not all of them said no, obviously. Were they the closest to you? What were the relationships?
Katie Nydegger (37:41)
Yeah.
Yeah.
No,
no. So it was my brother who's 10 years younger than me, who kind of in my mind paved the way for there to be some dissension. And he didn't do that until he was probably maybe 28. And you know, so at that point, I'm 38. Yeah.
Ann Barbour (38:13)
Okay, okay.
It's so fascinating again, because for the first child, I'm coloring inside the lines from day one and I'm so disturbed when people don't, you know, on the inside. I didn't always express it, but it was definitely there. And then noticing my middle brother, he's fascinating. He would just nod at my parents and do whatever he wants. So he wasn't really a disruptor. He was just a whatever he wants. And I was always envious.
Katie Nydegger (38:37)
Yeah, yeah. I know, I always
like, I didn't know that was an option. β
Ann Barbour (38:41)
didn't know that was an option either and that
really pissed me off.
Katie Nydegger (38:45)
You're like,
why am I the sucker asking for permission?
Ann Barbour (38:49)
Why am I the second? Yeah, and and so that is so funny and then our boys, β know, we they were typical not typical but when when when the our middle son, you know started breaking some rules the rules I had worked hard to never break I was well, let's just say I was too over identified with like what he was doing because I was like wait You're not following the rules. Like it just well it just messed everything up
And I just think to what you just described as that beautiful family expanding container. And I think we've eventually gotten there too. So that makes me like we've expanded where the allowing of mistakes and the allowing of messiness and knowing that's actually where life actually is in deep support of beautiful relationships. But thank you for that visual because I have this visual of this beautiful big family and then the container just expanding through love and support.
Katie Nydegger (39:26)
Mm.
Yeah, absolutely. And you saying that about your boys also reminded me of this beautiful stage of parenthood for me where my oldest children started choosing paths that were clearly outside of the culture that they were raised in. So I was raised in the Mormon church and raised my children that way as well. And my oldest
son went on a mission and came home and a year or so into college he started sort of living and experiencing life in ways that were outside of the recommendations like whether it's like alcohol use or you know using β marijuana occasionally recreationally with friends and and watching my boys feel sort of the liberty to
experiment with life and you know that was scary for sure but then it also showed me like no one's in charge of you but you and you've been living a lot of your life as if somebody else is the boss yeah so watching it also i felt like so grateful for my children for showing me that
There's a lot of ways to do this and sure you could do it this way and that's okay and you could also do it like this and that's okay too and just like you guys are so interesting and brave I think maybe I could be too.
Ann Barbour (41:22)
Yeah,
I think some of the boys, yeah, have been my greatest. I mean, 100 % they've been my greatest teachers. And I don't mean it like they weren't, they should have been in charge when they were young and stuff, but that transitional young twenties age where they're really coming into their own. And for me to take the leap of faith to trust, trust that they have a path that is not one for me to predict and not one for my husband to predict and to allow the freedom of that is his.
Katie Nydegger (41:47)
Right.
Ann Barbour (41:51)
helped widen our container. But we still fall back occasionally. There things that scare us still. β And yet, doesn't, that pattern, seems to be an old pattern where I'm like, it could be scary and still like, okay, let's, we still, we just love you. My job is to love you, period. In all of the.
Katie Nydegger (41:53)
Yeah. Yeah, of course. Yeah.
Yeah, exactly. Right. And sometimes
there's fear there too. And there's a little voice in the back of my head that still wants to clarify, like, my son didn't have like a huge alcohol or drug life. I just am saying that like, even any use of any of that is very much outside of what's acceptable in Mormonism and
Ann Barbour (42:13)
Yeah, a lot of times.
No, no.
Okay, yeah, anything. Yeah.
Katie Nydegger (42:34)
So willingness to even like have that at all be a part of your experience is not the norm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Ann Barbour (42:44)
Amazing. All right, I'm
trying to think of, we danced all around, hopefully, but you did a beautiful job of really giving us the heart of what I think the rebel mask really is, which is becoming our authentic voices. And I'm not supposed to be like you and you like me, but being able to feel free to say it and let it be clear and not hold back that extra 10%. And...
Katie Nydegger (42:58)
Hmm. Yes.
Ann Barbour (43:10)
You model it so well, and I know it's a work in progress, but I'm super grateful for that. And I laugh that at the end of the day, like I feel the people pleaser and the rebel or whatever mask we are, frankly. It's like, we're all just looking for safety, good relationships, you know? And like, we forget that all the time. And it's like, if we could just hold onto that as our oak tree, that would be a great place to be.
Katie Nydegger (43:27)
Yeah.
Exactly.
And that was sort of like a piece of feedback that I gave in group work too, where, you know, I was given some feedback that I can be very resistant, you know, and I sat with that and I've judged myself for that before, just like the part of me that can receive feedback from somebody else and kind of keep it at arm's length instead of just really welcoming it in. And as I sat with it, I think that's where a big part of the rebel for me is
like I value the resistance that I have because it's not a complete rejection of any feedback that I'm getting. It's just like that doesn't belong to me yet. I'm going to look at it for a while. I'm going to let it sit by me. And then and then when I welcome it in, I fully welcome it in. β
But it usually starts with some resistance and that's just a part of my process. I think that's a part of being a rebel is just like whenever somebody gives you something, you're just like, hang on a second. I'm gonna let that sit there for a bit first.
Ann Barbour (44:41)
I love that. That's
like a great math equation of you is like resistance plus curiosity plus openness equals best version of you. Like it truly is a great and to learn to love the resistance and to learn to be like this is actually for me. It's not good or bad.
Katie Nydegger (45:00)
Right.
Ann Barbour (45:00)
you know,
β uncomfortable, you know, think that it falls to the uncomfortable phase is the better we get at being uncomfortable with being ourselves, the better, because then you just laugh more and you're just messier. And it's just like, yeah, this is this is just life. And I'm not special.
Katie Nydegger (45:10)
Yes.
Yes, and it like provides a
collective permission for everyone else to be and do the same thing. Yeah.
Ann Barbour (45:22)
Yeah,
ultimately that would be a fun world to live in, it? We can hope for that. I think that's a good one. Yeah, one day at a time. β Is there anything that you wish I would have asked you that I didn't about really anything? No limits on what it was.
Katie Nydegger (45:26)
Absolutely. Yeah, we're making it.
Yeah.
No.
comes up.
Ann Barbour (45:52)
It's always fun to have these conversations, because then the rest of day I keep thinking about the mask that we talk about, and I keep laughing at all the ways that it shows up, and then get a couple learnings. So it'll be fun to just marinate in our conversation. But I wanted to just thank you so much for the gift of time and sharing β what I consider as a great bright light and an inspiration for me β on becoming a more authentic version of myself.
Katie Nydegger (46:08)
No.
Yeah.
Thank you so much. It's been my pleasure to take this time and have this conversation. Just really I feel the same I'm like, I'm just gonna bask in the afterglow for a while
Ann Barbour (46:28)
Yeah, you should. And now I think there's some type of alarm going on in my house, so I'm going to close. Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure. Bye.
Katie Nydegger (46:35)
Alright, sounds great. Yes. Thank you.
Bye.
Curt Cronin (46:43)
Most people don't realize they're wearing a mask, which hides their true power without even knowing it. But the people you work with, your friends, your family, and the world need you to step into the power of your authentic self. Take our free mass assessments when cover which of the 15 masks you are unconsciously wearing that shapes your life and how you can start to break free. Start your journey at AikiPartners.com and step into the power of your authentic self.
