Ann Barbour (00:49)
So welcome to Unmasking. We are going to dive into the independent mask today with my dear friend Matt Vizithum. And Matt and I have been talking about, oh gosh, all kinds of things, masks. We really like talking about how we show up as good people as Midwesterners. Just to introduce you a little to Matt, I met him through, it was the first thing, onsite at the Flow
Genome Project was it? Yeah. And ⁓ since then, we just have had a really lovely, trusted friendship that I can trust you as far as someone who will speak the truth. And hopefully I can do that for you. ⁓ one of the reasons I wanted you on here is because you have a way of communicating and listening that I think is next level. So thanks for being here.
Matt (01:20)
I think so.
Thank you, I'm happy to be here.
Ann Barbour (01:50)
Yeah, you're
welcome. So instead of going the bio game, I thought, or for like what you've done in your life, I would love to know what lights you up energetically and what kind of drains you in life.
Matt (02:07)
What definitely lights me up is being out in nature, especially being out in the ocean. ⁓ That's one of my passions. ⁓ Deep conversations with friends and talking to inspiring people really, really, that gives me a lot of energy. think I'm inspirable and so when I'm around people who are doing something they're passionate about and is alive for them, I really absorb a lot of that energy. So the converse of that is
⁓ It really drains my energy when I'm around people who I feel like are asking me to do things for them or carry them in a way that I don't think is mine to do. And that really, I think, is part of the independence mask that I wear.
Ann Barbour (02:54)
Yeah, I look forward to like kind of considering the crossroads, which you just kind of pointed to for right now. But let's take everybody back who's listening to when did your independence mask show up for you in your life? Maybe not even like when you were first aware of it, but when did you remember being like, I gotta do this on my own?
Matt (03:21)
Yeah, from as long as I can remember, I think I've been quite independent. ⁓ So I think that was just part of who I was. And I think it took many years for me even to realize that that was a thing. It's been interesting.
thinking after taking the mask analysis and reading all the different masks, there's so many of them that I feel like both I have good parts of and negative shadow sides of. ⁓ thinking more specifically about the independence mask has been, it's a bigger part of my life than I even realized until I took your survey.
Ann Barbour (04:01)
Yeah, and it kind of brings me to like our beliefs and our behaviors around the masks. So you're saying that it was just a part of like most of us when we're wearing them. It's just who you were. Yeah.
Matt (04:15)
Mm hmm. Yeah,
I like to be able to be the one who could do things without help. I like to be, you know, self starter. ⁓ We were joking before we even started this that the t shirt that's hanging up right over here and behind my back was given to me by one of our mutual friends and it says expect to self rescue. And he gave he gave me that that t shirt and I think he bought one for himself also. ⁓ But it was just
I guess other people see me that way also. So it was fun to have him give me that gift because there's a certain amount of it. think we both take pride in that. ⁓ then ⁓ now realizing that there are also, it comes with, ⁓ there's some challenges that come with it.
Ann Barbour (05:03)
Yeah, and that pride in being independent, you have an idea where that came, I mean, I know it feels good because you feel like I got this and it's a sense of, know, I have a story of control, but were you rewarded for being independent growing up?
Matt (05:07)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
I think I was rewarded for it. think that it's just, it's part of my family's values. So I think it goes pretty deep. then, you know, wanting to be a good son, wanting to be someone who ⁓ embodied those values. I think it just, it all started to feed together with my natural tendency.
Ann Barbour (05:38)
Yeah. And do you think that, and I know we've talked about this before, the Midwestern be a good person value, although I think it's not exclusive to the Midwest, but it definitely was. This is the way you should act. This is what good people do. And so in your version of it, was, I mean, be independent, I would, you know, slash strong. And then what were you supposed to do with?
When you needed help, what were your strategies if your only strategy was to rescue yourself? Did you have any, like you and your friends, if your friend can give you that shirt, our mutual friend Brett, how did you survive that? Because we really ultimately don't survive alone.
Matt (06:16)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, trying to be too independent, I think leads to a lot of pain and I think it leads to isolation and I think it leads to ⁓ a sense of feeling disconnected. And I think that there's a certain amount of, at some point there becomes an ego component to it where it does become an identity that other people see and they give you, they wanna see you in a role of,
independence and strength. So they know they don't have to take care of you and they know that they can potentially come to you and say, this is my problem. And they know that you won't give anything back to them that they have to deal with or carry in a negative way. So did that answer your question?
Ann Barbour (07:14)
Yeah, and as you were talking, I started laughing because at one point I think I read a book called The Energy Vampires and for people who come to individuals where they know they can get their needs met but nothing is required of them. then I guess, so I really understand that as far as like the people you can attract. I'll say that I know I've had the privilege and blessing of meeting and enjoying your wife in person and I guess
Matt (07:19)
Mm-hmm.
Ann Barbour (07:45)
⁓ When did you first become more aware of the independent mask? And specifically, how did that impact some of your most important relationships?
Matt (07:57)
think the time when it became most evident, which it was hard to cover for, was in 2017, we moved to Costa Rica. our kids, my daughter was going into middle school and my son was still in elementary school, but we decided to consciously disrupt our lives and put them in school in Costa Rica.
to get there and have limited ability to speak the language, not have a ⁓ network ⁓ that was just built in over time, like the social capital for people just to help us in a way that I didn't even realize was help. ⁓ It really showed me, wow, it's hard for me to ask for help. It's hard for me when I don't know ⁓ where to even, whether it's get basic things, how to...
you know, you can get a car repaired, anything like that. Everything was having to rely on other people to help. That felt very uncomfortable for me. So I think that that started to make me more aware of the impact that it's having on other parts of my life.
Ann Barbour (09:14)
I guess moving to a country like Costa Rica, and I know we've talked about it and how it's a country with its own pace and own timing. And it does seem like very much of a community place. I actually hope to get there someday. But in thinking of the kids and the independence and even transfer, I guess my first thought, I'm just jumping to like, and how does that impact how you parented?
Matt (09:41)
Yeah, I'm wondering how much of it I pushed on my kids that was not healthy. Both my kids, I think, are pretty independent and self-starters now. And I think one that really comes naturally, well, probably both of them, comes pretty naturally too, but I think we made their lives harder on them by trying to instill that value or that mask of independence, try and let them to be self, teach them to be self-sufficient.
⁓ You know a lot being surrounded at that time part of the reason why we went to Costa Rica was we felt like we were surrounded by So many parents who were either bulldozer parents or helicopter parents are always trying to to make things easier for their for their kids ⁓ you know, and it was the the most adversity it seemed like they would get would be Difficult soccer games or something like that. And then at the end you'd still get
you'd still, everyone would still get the trophy and the reward and there'd be a lot of, and we wanted them to, to experience a little bit more diversity, adversity to get some of that sense of independence. So I felt like we were actually looking for ways to make our kids' lives harder, which feels bad. But ⁓ I think it's because we just, both Melanie and I really do value that sense of self-sufficiency or independence or being able to take care of yourself and
So yeah, I'd like to want to have more of deeper conversation with both of my kids and figure out how that impacted them because I know it did have a big impact on them.
Ann Barbour (11:19)
⁓ I mean, I can come up with a complete story that that move and that saying that the social pressure to do it the way everyone else was doing it was like to pick up and move. I actually see it as a strength to just say, this is a clear signal for us as parents and we're not doing it. We're going to try it a different way. And remind me how long you guys stayed down there.
Matt (11:35)
Mm-hmm.
They were in school for two years there.
Ann Barbour (11:42)
Okay, okay. And what did, do you feel like, I mean, to speak to the positive side of it, that some of that did help disrupt things for your kids in a way that they did benefit from it? Because I can't imagine that they wouldn't have some great aspects to it.
Matt (12:01)
It feels right. Looking back on it now, it was definitely the right decision. And I think most of the impacts were all really good. ⁓ in the middle of it, it felt, it was hard and it felt cruel. And even, even then leaving was hard, you know, at that age, once you get a peer network set up and you have friends, just pulling people out of a familiar situation and putting them into a new situation is hard. So they got to.
two pretty big disruptions and then they came back and it was COVID. it, you know, the third one hit them pretty quickly. But I think because of that, I think they were more, I don't wanna say resilient, but they were more familiar with that feeling of isolation and having to be independent once COVID hit.
Ann Barbour (12:49)
Right? And knowing that they could get through it. So actually the word that was, I was thinking resilience. Like you were helping, you were giving them the gift of helping them build resilience and you were holding the discomfort of in the middle of it, A, probably not, you don't get to know the end goal, right? Like you just know that you felt clear that it was worth taking the risk. And so I love that. I actually love that side of it. And so we're going to, I laugh with our friend John Richards who always says like the parents who say,
Matt (12:54)
Mm-hmm.
Ann Barbour (13:16)
you know, they're great parents. He's like, he's like, man, he's like, it's the rest of us who are laughing and saying like, we did things we did it super uncomfortably. We didn't even know if we were doing it right. But you know, we tried to do something a little bit different and stretched and, ⁓ and some of it, hopefully the good comes pulled away and the rest of it can be left behind. Right.
Matt (13:38)
Yeah, the number of conversations that we had even in the beginning was, wow, are we really gonna create more problems in the future that are unintended because of this adventure that we're trying to go on? And looking back, it worked out.
Ann Barbour (13:55)
⁓ Okay, so Costa Rica is really a transition moment to really understanding that you have this independence persona that, you know, really probably served you very well becoming a doctor, like, for all the reasons that, you know, I got this. And then I guess professionally, it would be fun to talk about because the business world is full of a lot of needs and I know you're a business owner and I would love to know.
how both the independent mask has served you in a way that's supportive and then also that is detracted and made you frustrated mainly with yourself probably.
Matt (14:37)
I think the independent mask has been really helpful in a business sense because there's a way that you can, I use it, I think I put on the armor of you can bring me any problem and it's not going to phase me in the moment. know, inside it's a whole different story, but I think it allows, it allows things to come out or potentially us to be able to make more changes.
because people feel like they can put that pressure on me or ⁓ that uncertainty doesn't feel as, I think, dangerous to the people sometimes around me ⁓ if I'm wearing that mask. So think in that way, it's been very helpful. ⁓ Yeah, think fiercely independent, both my business partner and I, that's one way we described ourselves.
It's something that we also balance then with also we need support with the managing of people. I think also being able to delegate and allowing people to do things needs to go hand in hand with that because otherwise the independent side for me turns into frustration and anger and doing things that aren't mine to do. I think
early on there might have been a time where there was a little bit of feeling good about that and saying almost being a martyr. It's like, okay, keep giving me the stuff. I can keep handling more than you can give me. And then at some point it starts to turn where, wow, why am I doing these things that aren't mine to do? ⁓ I'm now seeing those.
much clearly. My sensitivity towards what's mine to do and what's not, I think is becoming much clearer to me.
Ann Barbour (16:44)
What would you say are the tools that you rely on, maybe two or three tools, that would help you hold the discomfort of ⁓ being in relationship with someone, whether it's personal or professional, and holding the, you you're aware that that's not yours to pick up, and yet you also want this person to trust you. And you're shifting the relationship from not only do I got you, but I'll do this for you occasionally, right? Into like empowering them.
Because I think when people see a shift, they don't want us to move because there was a comfort of safety in knowing how we operated. So once we get better at setting boundaries and knowing what's ours to pick up, that we can get a lot of resistance from those who were in relationships at all levels.
Matt (17:38)
Absolutely. I think people like to be around someone who has an independent mask because it makes their life easier. So as soon as you start to open up a little bit in that way, it does put, it changes the personal dynamic. I think a tool, I think the way I think about it now is the power of the positive no.
think that's really the way I have to get to it because it feels, if I'm talking to somebody and it doesn't, if it doesn't feel true to me, I think it's gonna come off to people and they're also not gonna understand and there'll be ⁓ more drama associated with it. But if I can get really ⁓ clear about the fact.
of what I'm saying yes to internally and then how that affects them. I think it works out pretty well because, it even translates to them where they feel like, you know, I'm saying no to taking this thing for you because this is part of your development. This is, I see potential in you and I see you having the ability to do more than you're doing and me doing it is actually gonna hold you back, prevent you from getting through this. ⁓
you know, this learning experience that you're just struggling with right now. So that part of it, I think, is really good.
Ann Barbour (18:57)
Yeah, I love the positive no. For those not familiar with it, like, when did you discover it and what, how often, how many years of practice do you have it at this point? Because it's a newer practice for me.
Matt (19:12)
Well, that's part of how we met was through the Flow Genome Project and part of the tools that Jamie Wheal taught us were that was one of them. It was understanding ourselves better and understanding how to manage conflict and understand where people are.
really that's where I got it so it's probably been and it was a bit it was before 2017 I think so probably 2015 something like that so quite a while it's one of those tools that ⁓ I wish I think to bring up more and use because it because it always helps
Ann Barbour (19:52)
I, um, I, uh, with, how do you, how does the good, the good person version of you like saying no?
Matt (20:01)
it's I don't like it at all. ⁓ Well, ⁓ you know, the the the good person part of me feels like. Why wouldn't you do that? Why would you why would you ask someone to do something that you could that you could do yourself? And ⁓ so that's that's where.
Ann Barbour (20:03)
Tell me more. ⁓
Matt (20:24)
I can get tripped up because if somebody starts using that against me and saying, wow, well, why would, why don't you do this? You're, you, you have the ability, you have the time you have. And so then that's where the resentment starts to build. When I feel people pushing things, pushing things on me because they can say manipulate me, but they, they realize that I'm sensitive to wanting to be, ⁓ to see myself as a good person.
Ann Barbour (20:53)
Yeah, that makes total sense. And I think that, I think we all on some level want that, because we all want to be, you know, I don't know, there's just such a deep, natural thing to wanting to be like helpful and productive. And if I can do it and I can, you can see that you're, you know, able to and someone else isn't, and then not helping could feel shameful. Do you flip the script and just, you know, is that, is that part of your?
any of your tools to be like, what if this is actually in service of the person that they learned this? Knowing it's not yours. Like, are you able to, to, you know, do the self-talk where you talk yourself into it's actually for the person and not hurting them.
Matt (21:38)
That's part of what I'm learning to do that better. Yeah. That's, that's an area that I'm trying to get better at for sure.
Ann Barbour (21:41)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I just noticed that when I can do it cleanly, where I'm not emotionally charged, I notice that that guilt over not being a good person totally disappears and I end up being like, you know, I'm clear that this is actually for you and our relationship's better as a result and I feel clean with it and I can walk away. Where in the past I would be completely filled with guilt, I should have, all those, you know, like self-talk things and...
And I think that I just, yeah, I love that.
Matt (22:20)
Yeah, and I think that the more I'm able to do that, then the more I'm able to think clearly in the moment and realize when it's something that is somebody else's and not mine. Because the more I'm picking up and doing things that aren't mine to do, I'm overextended, I'm tired and wired, and I'm not thinking clearly and making decisions in the best way for anybody, myself or the people around me. And it also then...
leads to irritability and frustration and anger. So that's where I think I'm starting to get better about it too, is when I feel like my responses to people or situations that don't match the context very well, then it means that there's either something in that interaction or in the other interactions that are really alive at that time that aren't really mine to do. And I'm feeling
I'm feeling ⁓ more like a victim or like I don't have agency in the situation. And then my reaction to that is usually, ⁓ you know, more to fight to protect myself. And that's where the independence comes up, because it's done. It's okay. Now it's a challenge. And if we're going to have to step into this situation, then it maybe becomes less skillful.
Ann Barbour (23:39)
Yeah, that's so funny. The next thing I was going to ask you about is ⁓ using the mask for agency versus armor. And do you still see it showing up in your life? And do you see where it can serve you? Or is it at this point you see it as more of a burden? Just curious where you are today with that.
Matt (24:03)
No, still see it as giving me agency. And there's no reason why I would want to become ever, I don't think I could see in this situation where I'd ever want to become less independent. ⁓ But there's also, you know, life, the older we get, you know, I think being too independent is maybe a sign of immaturity because, and lack of humility.
there's gonna become a point at some point in all of our lives where we're gonna be totally dependent. And so acknowledging that ⁓ is helpful for me now to see where I'm allowing myself ⁓ to use physical abilities or something else to solve a problem that I won't be able to use in the future. So I need to become more creative with solutions, I think I need to.
⁓ look for help in situations. So even so that I don't get hurt. mean, there's a certain point where it just could lead to physical injury if you don't ask for help doing something. So there's a, there's a practical reality where the world catches up to you at some point. I mean, I'm about to be 54. So, ⁓ yeah, it's a, the humility comes into it also.
Ann Barbour (25:24)
Humility and and yes this midlife thing, you know, just I'll share because it's live but my ⁓ my brother was going through something He's like, yeah, my blood pressure is high and I'm like, yeah, we have a family history of high blood pressure I should check mine and I was in the doctors yesterday and as of today I'm on blood pressure medicine and I didn't even feel anything and and and you know, I was and I was doing that independent strong taking care of other things and I Was like, here I am again like ignoring my own physiology
Matt (25:40)
no.
Ann Barbour (25:53)
for the sake of others and ⁓ not that it's not done with love, but it's just, I seem to be, I have a big blind spot, so I appreciate friends who can tell me, or just the fact that my meditation practice allows me to hear something that my brother says and it reminds me of something I should be tracking. it kind of, you know, the humility of this point of life and like really honoring.
Matt (26:12)
Thank you.
Ann Barbour (26:21)
You know, the gift of being here and knowing like so much of it is not in my control. It just, I don't know. It makes me laugh because the lessons keep coming in an abundant form these days. ⁓
Matt (26:33)
They're everywhere.
One question I had for you about this mask is, how do you feel, do you feel like there's a component of faith in this?
Ann Barbour (26:47)
I don't... Let me think about that.
Maybe. My first word was...
Trust, trust in myself to be.
you know, everyone's talking about it, but a better version of myself that I can because I do believe that there's an independence and the whole that go together with all of us. And so...
In terms of the Independence mask, I think it's important that I'm really clear on who I am so that my engagements with other people are healthier and that they, that then together we can create things even better because we're all aware of our, what we bring uniquely into the room. And so...
I guess the question is, is it faith? Sometimes I think it's bigger than me. And it helps me with ego and pride to play with that as a possibility because when I make it about me and the little, or you know, the little I, I usually end up.
suffering and in battles that waste a ton of time. And if I can be like, trusting that it's something that's bigger than me and it requires me to be me instead of comparing myself to anyone else in the room and allowing that ⁓ to guide me. So I'm not sure if that answered your question, but that's what feels where it would be helpful.
Matt (28:31)
Yeah,
that's where I was going with it is too much independence, I think, is a lack of belief that there's something bigger than yourself.
Ann Barbour (28:44)
Yeah, right.
Matt (28:46)
And as soon as I can reframe problems in that way.
it seems to open up a lot more possibilities for me. And that's part of why I think the being outside in nature, being in the ocean, it really reminds me that I am part of something bigger and helps me feel the necessity to be completely self-sufficient is, I mean, it's almost a foolish thing to think about when you're, you know, when you're out in nature, you're just, I feel like, you know,
I'm part of everything else and I just need to realize that accept it, get in the flow and be part of something bigger and not trying to be just independent on an island by myself.
Ann Barbour (29:37)
⁓ And would you say that that version of yourself like the the person that's at work, let's just use work as the example, tends to feel more separate and disconnected than the person in nature and like what is the feeling you get in nature like one level down of connectedness? What is that?
Matt (30:03)
Hmm.
Ann Barbour (30:08)
if you can put words into it actually.
Matt (30:11)
It definitely.
the independent side shows up way more at work. I mean, it just, seems, it seems practical. seems the, it's just, it's a mascot where it's a role that I play. It serves me there and I think it serves the people around me. Yes, in nature.
the feeling underneath that, the connectedness, a sense of peace, a sense of trust. Yeah, there's a calmness, a sense of warmth and love. It's very, very different, very, very comforting.
Ann Barbour (30:51)
Yeah. And do you find, ⁓ I don't want to put words in your mouth, but what, you know, you're, you're this small person out in this big ocean, you know, like how much bigger everything is and like, you know, you're noticing sky. know ⁓ it's kite surfing, right? That you love. And so like, you've got the wind, you've got the elements working for you, maybe, or against you. And you just realize, wow, this is, this is incredible. Like it's such a gift.
Matt (31:07)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
wonderful and you realize that you have no control. You can't change the wind. You can't change the wind direction. You can't change, you know, the water temperature. There's this so many things are out of your control and you just have to it brings you into the present moment and your awareness has to really expand and it you know, it's it's I think where I feel the most it's easiest for me to feel the most gratitude and that's why I'm a better person when I when I'm there more often.
Ann Barbour (31:52)
Yeah. Okay, so this is a funky question for us, but ⁓ on the independence mask, because I know we play around talking about masculine and feminine, we both know we have both, but does that feel like, your mom independent as well as your dad? I'm just curious around what you inherited, what you took. I know there's cultural pieces to it, but just a little curious around the masculine, feminine piece of that, because.
I feel like...
I got a lot of my independence drawn from my dad.
and I adored him, so I picked it up happily.
Matt (32:34)
I got it from both my parents. definitely. my mother, think.
Ann Barbour (32:37)
Okay, that says a lot.
Matt (32:43)
maybe even externally acts more independent or takes more pride in that.
Ann Barbour (32:49)
And she always has, like she hasn't evolved into, like she's just steadily been that way. That's in essence who she is. Yeah.
Matt (32:56)
Mm-hmm. Yep. Mm-hmm.
Yeah. And I see it even now. it hasn't... I don't know if that's softened. It may be getting more independent.
Ann Barbour (33:10)
So interesting. And then I think you know this, but my dad passed in 23 and my mom who was six years younger and super dependent on him and looked up to him and they had a great relationship, a very normal marriage for someone who's married as many years as they were. But I've really noticed that she's really taken on this ability to be super independent and capable and she's
Matt (33:11)
Mm-hmm.
Ann Barbour (33:39)
struggling with the fact that she doesn't have a person there anymore. so, Mom, I know you listen, so I'm telling you, I notice how hard you work and I try to be better at the support. Because she keeps saying, I'm worried about what you're going to say. And I'm like, you're actually very impressive and incredible and confident. And, you know, she comes out of these meetings at 82 with her financial advisor. And I just think, wow. So I laugh. I defaulted to my dad, but my mom does too. So.
Matt (33:43)
and
Ann Barbour (34:09)
I think it's just fun to listen to think about all the things that we get that serve us.
Matt (34:17)
And I, and you know, the, masks are tools that become very useful. You just, I just, I'm trying to think of them as, as I was on your website and reading through the different, the different types of masks and thinking about them as a sliding scale and how do you, how do you pick up the right mask when it's useful for you and use it, ⁓ use it to your advantage. ⁓ I think one of the other podcasts that Curt did, he was talking about, you know, if there's a
a problem that you don't know how to solve or it's not in your nature to act a certain way. You have to become the type of person who would do that to be able to get out of the current situation or to solve the problem. So I think about that a little bit like a mask. It's like, okay, I need to pick up, I need to pick up a strong mask now. I need to pick up a different type of mask for this situation. And I know underneath it, there's going to be some imposter syndrome, but I know that I can do it in this situation. And then
Ann Barbour (34:59)
Yeah.
Matt (35:16)
go back to whatever my bass line is, but.
Ann Barbour (35:18)
Yeah. And if you're just playing with it, if you're not taking yourself so seriously, there's not a ton of pride in it. You really can lean into it, enjoy it, laugh at yourself without it being a thing. And yeah, I agree. think about, and I think he said it's Ali Crum who uses thresholds to remind herself of how she's walking into room, what energy she's carrying. And I mean, obviously the masks, think that's Curt alludes to that as well, as far as ⁓ what he's doing.
Matt (35:23)
Yes.
Ann Barbour (35:48)
The jokes aren't, I find it funny, was like, I'm totally gonna do that. Every time I touch a door handle, you know, that's a great reminder. And I don't know about you, we can laugh about this, but I forget that 99 % of the time with intention of doing it. So it's amazing how we just get into our autopilot and forget, but it's so, you're right, it's such a great tool to kind of keep coming back to and keep remembering.
Matt (36:15)
And it does have to be the playful thing because that's what makes it fun because...
You just don't take it too seriously and the outcomes don't matter as much. You're invested in different things when your identity is not caught up in it being one particular mask and everybody perceiving you in the same way or giving you the accolades that you want from that perspective. So that's been a fun unlock for me.
Ann Barbour (36:43)
It's a lighter way to travel. ⁓ Is there anything else about the Independence mask that we didn't discuss? Is there something that's super live that I missed it totally and you feel like it would be important to share?
Matt (36:47)
to that.
can't think of anything. I'm glad you brought up how it affects being a parent. I think that that's something that I wanna think more about. The other part that I want to work more on myself is the co-creation piece because I think the part that I'm really looking forward to going...
next phases of my life is more of that co-creation, more of being part of a team, being part of, you know, working with people toward a common goal and not being so independent. So I know the independence is going to keep coming up, but I want to try and create more space around that and be more of a role player in some respects, along with being independent.
Ann Barbour (37:49)
Do you feel like your kids, speaking of your team, your family team, do you think like they're game at this point or are they just at the ages where they're super in the independent phase because of their age?
Matt (38:01)
I think they're super independent at this stage of life. And I think that that's, I think it's a healthy developmental stage and one that makes you feel more resilient to our earlier conversation.
Ann Barbour (38:15)
Yeah, exactly. Well, ⁓ it's always a pleasure talking to you about all this stuff. Super fun to listen to and think about all the ways that ⁓ we show up and hopefully are trying to show up a little better each day. Okay.
Matt (38:30)
Thank you, Ann.
Curt Cronin (38:34)
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