Scott Schimmel (00:01)
Welcome to Unmasking, a podcast for those ready to lead, love and live with more clarity, freedom and truth. We all wear masks and they have helped us all to fit in, stay safe, get ahead. But over time, those same masks start to weigh us down. They disconnect us from our joy, our energy and our true self. This show is an invitation to explore 15 of those masks that we wear to be accepted, admired or in control.
and then to get really curious about what they're really costing us. I'm your host, Ann Barbour, and in each episode, we'll look at one mask and explore what it protects, what it hides, and what's possible without it. I invite you to join me in unmasking. We'll laugh, we'll probably cringe, but we'll be real.
Ann Barbour (00:49)
Hi everyone and welcome back to Unmasking. I have the privilege and honor of speaking with my friend, Jide, and we've already been laughing because we're going to talk about the perfectionist mask today. And then I had a whole moment where I'm trying to say his last name correctly. And I've had him ask me a couple of times now. So we're going to say, Oke. And he's going to tell me if I'm right or wrong right out of the bat, or how would you say it today?
Jide (01:10)
Yeah.
Actually,
it's Oke, but it was a pretty good try. So yeah, I'll give you a thumbs up on that.
Ann Barbour (01:17)
β see.
Yeah. And just going right into perfection, people and names and forgetting people's names and seizing up is just one of my like definitely rooms for improvement. So welcome to the podcast and thanks for chatting. β all things perfectionism with me, β as everything is, it's always a mirror over here for what's going on. and I'm especially excited for this one. I am the oldest of three children.
and I think it plays out in a role. And I am going to turn it over to you to tell us a little bit about β you, what lights you up, β where you want to start. And maybe birth order is actually part of it, because I think it's an interesting piece of the
Jide (02:02)
Mmm.
Absolutely. Well, first, I feel very grateful for this moment and time with you. I think it's an honor to be here and to explore this idea and this topic of perfectionism. I know that, yeah, like even as I'm sitting here with you, there's stories and scripts that are running in my head of how I want to look, how I want to speak, I want to talk. And yeah, so it's going to be fun to sort of explore how that's at play and, you know.
curious to see how the time with you goes. So yeah, my name is Jide, very good try on the last name. It's Jide Oke. And I was born and raised in Nigeria. So interestingly enough, I don't think I knew that about you that you're the oldest of three, I'm the oldest of four. And yeah, so it's interesting when I think about that piece of my life story and how that informs the way that I've had to wear this mask of perfectionism right from a very young age.
I live in Chicago currently. I've actually lived here for the last 20 years. I moved here from Nigeria when I was 18 to start college and I've been here since. So it's been an interesting journey over the last 20 years, sort of meld in my identity, you know, growing up in a Nigerian family and moving to the United States and figuring out, you know, the sense of being, it's actually been really fun meld in both worlds.
And I find a lot of joy in just connecting with who I authentically am, what makes me tick as today and realizing that there's really no one else like me on this planet, right? And giving honor and truth to myself has been the journey that I've been on for the last decade or so. And I think it's probably gonna be the journey of a lifetime.
Professionally, I spent a lot of my time working in beverage manufacturing. I've been in that space for the last 14 years. I think it's been interesting sort of seeing how my personal interests β merge into my professional world. And β a big part of the last decade of my life, I've been really focused on what it means to be fully alive and to be a conscious human.
So I bring a lot of consciousness, practices, and work into my professional life and also my personal life as well.
Ann Barbour (04:37)
Amazing. β I'm so excited to get going in the beginning, to see where you take us, because I have a feeling that that's the way it goes with you. But let's go back to your family of origin and where you first noticed or felt the need to be perfect. And do you remember a specific moment, or do you just remember that that's just the way you always were? Is it a natural innate part of you to want to be that way?
Jide (04:41)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Hmm.
Yeah, that's a really good question. And I think it's interesting because if I were to really journey back in time, I think that there were messages that were instilled in me probably before I was aware and conscious of who I was. So and this is typical of a lot of Nigerian families. If you have Nigerian friends, you might have heard this running joke before, but a lot of parents
who have kids in Nigerian culture predetermine what they want you to be when you're older. So, you know, the joke is, well, you're either going to be an engineer, a lawyer, a doctor, you know, so it's all those high, you know, big careers that, you know, sort of ensure that, you know, when you grow up, that you have a little bit of stability. So it's funny because I...
I think that I probably had that programmed in me at the very young boy that I was going to be one of those things. And, you know, before I knew it, when I was eight, nine or 10, I just remember saying to, you know, people who would ask me, what do want to be when you grow up? And I would say, I want to be an engineer. want to be an engineer. And at eight, I don't think I even knew what that meant. So, so yeah, when I think about, you know, that part of my story, I find it really fascinating that
Ann Barbour (06:20)
it. β
Jide (06:26)
there was an expectation that I had to live up to right from a very young age. you know, when I think about my adult self, you know, and who I am today, I realized that one of the core messages that I received when I was really young was that for me to be approved of, loved and liked, I had to be good. I had to be perfect. And as the oldest of four, β
that message is really strong and really clear. And I remember being in school or in social circles and being the young boy that everyone looked up to as responsible and could do no wrong. And that became a part of my identity. I found a lot of pride in being that person. And it is interesting. I see how that served me well up until this point in my life. And I also see how that's been.
the illuminant factor β and coming into the fullness of where we really are.
Ann Barbour (07:33)
Yeah, I can relate to that. β My dad, I was the only girl, so apple of dad's eye. So making him proud and perfection and doing your best. mean, he sold it as do your best, but it felt like perfection to me and I couldn't separate the two, right? And then β socially, I'd be curious what your thoughts are on this. So I had my dad and my mom, both who I wanted to make happy, but at some point that perfectionism.
Jide (07:38)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Hmm.
Hmm.
Yeah. Yeah.
Ann Barbour (08:01)
transitioned into socially not liked. And so I was at a crossroads. Did you have any experiences with that socially? Like, I mean, people teased me because, well, to be honest with you, I cried by not getting an A plus in seventh grade and they called me on it. And I was embarrassed that something that was just personal to me was like so blatant to others that that need to be perfect. So curious what you experienced both.
Jide (08:18)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Ann Barbour (08:31)
like as a young child in your family, as well as like that junior high age where things start getting a lot more complicated.
Jide (08:37)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I'm just having a lot of flashbacks to experiences that I had, you know, in that time period of my life. I... And what's coming up right now is just noticing how socially within, you know, friend groups and friend circles, I sometimes felt on the outs, because part of this perfectionist image was always doing the right thing at the right time in the right place.
And, you know, think back to high school, like that's the emphasis of, you know, that age. It's all about breaking the rules. It's all about, you know, rebellion and doing your own thing. And I just remember being a stickler for the rules. It's like, this is the right thing to do. And I wasn't very liked by my friends because I didn't easily succumb to, you know, peer pressure, as we'll call it.
And the good thing about it is I earned, you know, the motivations were really high because I was well respected and rewarded by authority figures. So whether it was my parents or teachers, and that meant way more to me at the time than the approval of my friends. So yeah, because for an adult to look at me and say, you did the right thing, great job, good boy. Whew, that, that.
That felt so good here at the time. And I think it became the system where I knew that if I could perform and maintain this idea and image of who I'm supposed to be, the rewards are going to keep coming. So that was, when we think about it, just in terms of human biology, that was my way of surviving in the environments that I grew up in.
Ann Barbour (10:33)
Yeah. All right. I'm not trying to move you fast, but my first thought is, that, you have this perfection people pleaser want the adults to be to like, and how did they feel about you coming to college in the States? that from a, cause of course underneath, you know, the perfectionism as we both have shared with each other is that need for control and control of how people perceive us and we are perceived. Right. So what was that like to leave?
Jide (10:37)
It's okay.
Mm.
Ann Barbour (11:03)
And in some ways I have a story that actually breaks the following the rule book a little bit. Is that true or tell me more.
Jide (11:11)
Oh, absolutely. Yes, it was. I, I, I was so fascinated because in this moment I just remember the first day that I arrived here in Chicago. So growing up in Nigeria, you know, if you know anything about Nigeria, it's a warm climate and I had never since know before. So I started college in the spring semester. So was right in the middle of January. I
got off the plane, walked out of the airport in Chicago and could not believe what I experienced. And I wondered in that moment if I'd made the biggest mistake of my life. It was so cold and I just didn't know how I was gonna survive it. But in that same moment though, I felt fear and excitement, right? Cause all of a sudden my world was about to change and there was
Ann Barbour (11:46)
Thank
Jide (12:09)
this endless sense of opportunity for me to create a life for myself. You know, it's like that classic college experience. We're all living home for the first time. Well, most of us live in home for the first time and we're in an environment where we get to be who we want to be. But going back to, you know, prior to that moment, it was a little bit tough and difficult for my parents to let me leave as the oldest.
No one had done that in the family before. So I was pushing a boundary for the norm that we had grown up in. And the interesting thing is there was a lot of trust my parents had in me. Because knowing that I had been the golden child up until that point, there was a lot of trust that, yes, even though I was going to be leaving home and moving to a different country, that I was going to maintain an uphold.
the values that I'd been instilled with. Yeah, so that good boy golden child image was, guess, you know, my winning ticket that allowed my parents to feel more at ease with letting you move. Yeah.
Ann Barbour (13:23)
that makes total sense. I know we've been talking about this as well. That quote I shared β about facing life moving forward, but only making sense in the rear view mirror. Obviously, you can see that pretty clearly about the Golden Ticket. Did it feel like the Golden Ticket? Were you aware of the power of the Golden Ticket at the time?
Jide (13:25)
Mm-hmm.
and
β A part of me was and a part of me was I also felt like I didn't have any guidebook. No one that I knew had done well, no one that I knew who was close enough to me had done that before. So there was no path that I could walk on. I knew that I was going to have to chart my own path. And there's an excitement that comes with that. And then there's also terror that comes with that as well. β
And I think that, you know, it's, you know, looking back now, I wouldn't have changed a thing because the man that I am today is because of moving through that experience, you know, and figuring things out for myself and, you know, making up my own rules for survival, for existing, for thriving. And that felt fun. That was...
an exciting time for me because I wasn't within the constraints that I've grown up in. Yeah.
Ann Barbour (14:52)
Perfect. at this point, was one of your strategies, did you know anyone in Chicago or were you just like, any connections?
Jide (14:55)
you
I did not know is soul
in Chicago. Not one. Not one.
Ann Barbour (15:08)
So this perfection persona that has gotten you the golden ticket, you show up in Chicago. Tell me about college, 20s, like how did that serve you? Because clearly it's working for you at this point and it's working really, really strongly. β Wait, my next question is, I have one more question. What did you just choose to study in college? Was it one of the three? Was it one of the three? Or are you breaking a couple of rules now?
Jide (15:10)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yeah,
Yeah, that's an interesting story there. β So to answer your first question, β I think I had to rely on what I knew to survive. So I thought at the time that if I appeared as this good boy, this good man who does all the right things and follows all the rules, I'll survive in the environment that I'm in.
Culture shock is a real thing, you know? So growing up in Nigeria and in the context that I was in, that worked. And I realized that I wasn't as successful β wielding those same skills in this environment. I remember the first six months of being here and just the sadness and depression that I went through. β
trying to find my way in this new environment and this new culture. And the shock that I experienced just realizing that what I thought would help me, those tools were not really. it was, yeah, I went through a period of really, yeah, really figuring out what I was gonna need to adopt to survive in this new environment.
Yeah, and I think that I realized that. β
this good boy, good boy, good man persona that I had wasn't necessarily going to serve me. So I had to find, I had to find new tools and new skills to survive. And then, yes, I did study engineering. No surprise there. Chemical engineering was, yeah.
my field of study and I enjoyed it and I also realized that that's, you like I ended up asking myself the question, am I doing this for myself? Am I doing this for my parents? Right, because on one hand, I knew that I was making my family happy and proud. And on the flip side of that coin, checking in with myself.
kept asking the question, is this fulfilling? Am I happy studying this? But one of the skills of survival that I had is power through, white knuckle your way through, you're going to make it. And I did. I still remember one of my proudest moments was my graduation day. I was actually the student commencement speaker. And I just remember
It just felt like the culmination of all the years of β hard work and effort in. I just, remember my parents feeling so proud of myself and it just felt like life couldn't get any better, right? Cause four years ago I had moved here from a different country. And then in that moment I was representing my graduating class. I, it was, it was a peak.
moment for me. And, you know, as I reflect back, I have a lot of gratitude for that moment and the journey that led me there. β But then I also asked myself a question, what did it cost me? You know, to stand on that stage, you know, and, you know, as I've reflected over the years, yeah, there's been a lot of self betrayals that I've made to shine and to be this
Ann Barbour (19:17)
Yeah.
Jide (19:31)
golden man, you know, that a lot of people have come to like and love.
Ann Barbour (19:38)
And is that hard? guess what I'm thinking is that like it feels like a cumulon, like a moment that just, obviously I'm struggling with work, but a moment that built to this like being on the stage, making your parents proud. Did that feel in the moment like an ending in an awareness that yes, it felt good on the outside, but like maybe something was lacking on the inside of that moment or at that moment, were you just still all in to this is working?
Jide (19:50)
you
Ann Barbour (20:06)
I love the way I feel getting the outside validation. Is there anything more you want to add on that?
Jide (20:13)
Yeah, it was an interesting time because right around that time period, we were going through a recession in this country. And I had this peak moment and I didn't have a job lined up post-college. I actually had friends who had jobs rescinded because the economy was so bad. So it was, I felt...
I felt betrayed. β I thought that if I did everything the right way, that there was always going to be a reward. And there was one day post-graduation without a job. And I felt so much shame and...
disappointment in the system. It didn't work. It didn't work.
To be honest, think that began the journey for me to the exploration of how to live my life up until that point. Because all of a sudden, the system wasn't working for me. Because I thought if I had to do this way, I'd get this result. And when that doesn't work, it makes you question everything.
Ann Barbour (21:20)
Ouch, right?
again.
Jide (21:49)
Yeah, so I went and started a process for me of, you know, that inward journey and that reflection of, wow, so if this doesn't work, if this doesn't get me the result that I want, what's going on with me? Right. So a lot of those questions reflected back internally of, wow, like,
What did I do wrong or why? Like, what is it about me that didn't give me this result? What could I have done differently? know, so it's all this self reflection questions came up for me and that began the journey that I'm still on today of really discovering who I really am and what it means for me to be authentic in the way that I, you know, express myself and relate with.
the world around me.
Ann Barbour (22:50)
And just out of curiosity for like people listening, because what I think is interesting is this like, you're saying that this perfection mask, the following the rules, like for me, how I experienced it was like, it was like a linear line. If I follow the rules, everything turns out and I get what I want. I believe that to be true as well, right? Until the world kicked me into a couple of circles where I spun as long as I needed to spin until I figured out how to get out, you know, and kind of like, kind of went through life in that different way. Do you... β
Jide (22:53)
Hmm.
and
Hmm.
Ann Barbour (23:19)
You know, did you fully abandon the perfectionist mask at that point? Or has it always been like your stable ground to fall back on? Because it's useful, right? Like in manufacturing or engineering, whatever, like, you know, you have that attention to detail. have the reasons why you can be successful with that mask. you don't like Don and I talked about, you don't want to take away the good, which is about that part of you. But were you just adding a new
Jide (23:34)
Absolutely.
Ann Barbour (23:49)
ways of being or were you trying to get rid of it? Because the natural thing is, oh, this is bad. It doesn't serve me anymore and I want to get rid of it. Are you talking what I'm trying to ask?
Jide (24:01)
Yeah, that's a brilliant question. I love that question. For me, I think part of my work is learning how to be skillful and use this mask skillfully. I think that it's not really about discarding β the mask. I think it's really finding a way to integrate that β into your life and to use that.
β in a way that's helpful, that serves you and serves others, or serves the cause that you might be in. So that's the journey that I've been on. It's the strain of integration. Like you mentioned, I work in manufacturing. That's a very high-stake environment. Mistakes, you have to be really careful around making mistakes and failing, because there's so much on the line.
And I found that there are moments that I need to be on. I need to be on my game, really smart, really attentive to the details. You know, because in the manufacturing world, where we're talking about efficiency, how do we make, you know, our lines more efficient? What's our output? You know, and the costs are high with those, you know, details that mistakes are.
though we can learn from mistakes, they're not always very welcome in those environments. So I've been able to use, you know, perfectionism as a skill to be able to get me great results in the manufacturing world. And I think that that's been really important for me to figure out. And I can also see how that can drive results that you sometimes miss out on the nuance of
you know, and I actually just call it like the nuance of humanity, you know, because at the end of the day, it's humans that are sitting behind the computers, it's humans that are scanning on those manufacturing lines, making sure we're getting those outputs. And as I've grown professionally, I have found a lot of curiosity and care for the humanity that's behind all the great results that we get.
Ann Barbour (26:25)
Awesome. in your role, like, so for the individual, this mask actually works really, really well. But of course, β we're part of lots of different systems, family systems, friendships. Tell me, are you leading a group or are you in a leadership position? Yeah. So you're leading people. And so how does the perfectionist mask either serve those dynamics or hurt? β What are you reading?
Jide (26:42)
I am in a leadership capacity,
Ann Barbour (26:54)
your experience has been with that.
Jide (26:56)
Yeah, that's great. I do remember a lot of my early years, you know, making my way up the ladder, so to speak, within the corporate world and the career that I'm in. And quite honestly, I think one of the reasons that I became as successful as I am was because I had this great about me and I had a high level of excellence for myself.
And I knew that I wanted to outperform anyone in my peer group. So I would go in super early. I would stay late nights. I would work on the weekends. I would go above and beyond to deliver great results. And, you know, like I mentioned earlier, there's a system that I knew worked. I knew that if I could be that person, I was going to get the reward.
and the results, and I did. And if I'm being honest, I was very happy with that. It worked for me, right, to get promoted, you know, every so often and to be respected by my peers and my mentors and my bosses. That was a valuable currency for me at the time. And as...
as I journeyed up the ladder and now find myself in a leadership role, it is really interesting to see some of those behaviors and some of the people that I manage, for example. And those have been really important mirrors for me because I see the striving, I see the need and the drive to want everything to be perfect, to be right. And as a leader, I'm also able to see what's
what that's costing them and you know, compassion rises for me. And I realized that, you know what, you don't have to be perfect. You know, one of my mentors, he always said this to me at work. He used to say, and I'm pretty sure he still says this, but he says, don't kill perfect for good enough. Right? So in this,
And that was very applicable to me at the time because in a lot of my deliverables, I wanted the perfection. Like I wanted my work to speak for itself. And I had that reputation, quite honestly, like when I had an output, you know, you knew that that was today's work, you know, because there was a level of excellence to that. And what I learned over the years was that, yes, delivering a perfect deck or
knocking out this project or having this beautiful deliverable. Yeah, it's beautiful. It's perfect. It's great. But is that necessary? Right?
Ann Barbour (30:01)
Let's dig
in. What was the cost? What's the cost of that? what, you know, it felt good out in the world. Trust me, I get it. But like, what was the cost to your heart? Like, how did that, did you feel connected or did you feel like an island?
Jide (30:08)
Mm-hmm.
Um, Ooh, that's a great question. I think the cost was, um, I don't know how to do with my ego. My ego wanted the validation. My ego wanted the approval. My ego wanted the praise, the respect. And I noticed that I was using my perfection, you know, as almost like a bargain for.
those rewards, right? And I noticed that when I didn't get those things, I was like an ego death, you know, and because I let's for example, I would work on a project, you know, and let's say I would spend nights and weekends, you know, finding in and trying to get the perfect, you know, final presentation and I send that in and, know,
the executive team works through that and then, you know, spends maybe five minutes looking through that and, you know, have a conversation for two minutes about it. And then my ego's going, what? Like, that's it? That's all I'm gonna get out of all the hours that I put into making this thing look perfect. And, you know, and that happened multiple times and...
Ann Barbour (31:30)
Right. Right.
Jide (31:43)
I began to realize that I was really craving this validation and I was outsourcing it, right? I thought that if I deliver perfect work, I would be validated by my bosses and all the people that I respected. And part of the work and part of the journey has really been finding that validation within, right? So it's been looking at
Ann Barbour (32:10)
Yeah, right.
Jide (32:13)
the work that I do and to be able to say to myself, this is good enough and I'm proud of myself for this work. It doesn't need to be perfect and I can be okay with this. I can be happy with this and I know that I've done my best here and that's good enough. So that's been the work and it's been, I have to remind myself of that over and over again. Yeah.
Ann Barbour (32:39)
Yeah,
I, β so I, what I'm curious about is like, the work is good enough. How does that impact your self-esteem and of I am enough? Like, and because, cause we, you know, we both know that, we've shared that is that like, there's a lot of like, you know, and as I get older, I'm like, why am I still seeking this thing from my youth and why is it still so important to me? And obviously it is right. So.
Jide (32:50)
Beautiful.
Ann Barbour (33:08)
Anything that you can say on that. What are your thoughts?
Jide (33:12)
Yeah, no, I love that because I see, you know, because I can start with this idea of my work is good enough or, you know, this is good enough. But I think when you keep going down, you know, the layers at the very bottom of that is a sense of. I am enough, right, and. I'm a big affirmations guy, I'm really.
careful about the words that I use, like my self-talk, right? Because the perfectionist in me can be very critical, right? When something isn't right, when that level of excellence that I would expect isn't there, the inner critic comes out. And it's really strong and can be helpful and also very dangerous. So it's been interesting to reframe a lot of my self-talk and
When I have an output or do a piece of work and when I look at that and say that's good enough, I'm intrinsically saying I am enough. I am good enough. Yeah.
Ann Barbour (34:26)
Yeah, I love that. It makes me happy. Right, I'm
gonna do something you're not supposed to do, but my dog is scratching at the door. And so we're gonna let him out because otherwise he's taking me out of presence. He's like, okay, here I am, I'm back. I'm laughing, I'm like, all I can hear is the dog. And my perfectionist is like, you're not supposed to do this. And I'm like, I'm gonna do this.
Jide (34:34)
Like...
Yes. Yeah. great. β
But
this is, you know, I think this is real life. This is all, you know, I think this is all part of it. You know, I think sometimes I'm not going to speak for you, but I forget that I'm human. Right. And, you know, I think that I'm supposed to, you know, especially let's play with the context that we're in where we're recording this podcast and, you know, there's an expectation that I can have of this is how I want it to sound.
this way, I want my words to flow this way, and can I play with this and not let this be perfect? And can I be okay with this idea that this is good enough and that I'm enough? Right? So that's, that's... It's all, yes, exactly. Yeah.
Ann Barbour (35:24)
you
Yeah. And I was thinking, and you care. Like, I mean, it's all of the things, right? Of course we care. And I don't know. think
that mess, know, I was thinking about like everyone's, okay, this is going to cut, but you know, the hero, I love the hero's journey. Like I wanted to be the hero, but the problem is, that I'm kind of, you know, turning towards, well, fool's journey, like not the real fool's journey, but like just like laughing at myself more. β I mean, that's been a gift for me of, of trying to take the mask off. I don't think it's ever fully gone for me, but.
Jide (35:44)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Mmm
Ann Barbour (36:00)
It's this, it's this like, can you laugh at the imperfections in the moment and not take yourself so seriously that you can't just play with it and like just be accessible and grounded and real. Because I think for me, and I think that's where I was headed was a lot of the perfectionist stuff really caused disconnection for me. You know, my, my parents had the name, the general, the boss, whatever you want to call it, but it was disconnection because it was as if I was in charge or my friends, you know, never saw me.
Jide (36:06)
Yeah, absolutely.
Ann Barbour (36:30)
totally lose it. just lost it at home instead. But I was always managing and controlling the image of Anne so that really, they would, mean, ideally, so I would be liked and not left out because I had been in seventh grade. It goes all the way back to seventh grade and anyhow, so I just think β it's really, it's amazing to see how much this mask has actually served you in your life and to, you know,
when we're together in real person and live, it's just, I can see where it's just actually a part of you that's the gift. And it's also like the part that keeps that full aliveness from feeling that way. And I know we're both kind of working through that same thing. And I just thought I'd share it and wondering if you have anything to add, like what tools help you, guess, let's give the listeners like three of your favorite tools to be able to either laugh at yourself or like.
Jide (37:05)
Mmm.
Ann Barbour (37:26)
be really good okay with I am good enough.
Jide (37:29)
Yeah. I think the most important thing for me is I love meditation. I've been under meditation journey for β several years now. Almost a decade when I think about it. And there's something really powerful about our breath. And if you think about the breath,
Ann Barbour (37:31)
you
Jide (37:58)
feel like that's a whole different podcast. We could have a whole other conversation, you know, on the breath. But meditation has really been a powerful tool for me. Practice, actually, I prefer that word. It's been a really powerful practice for me around this idea of just coming to this belief and knowing that I am enough.
Ann Barbour (38:00)
Probably. We could go on and on.
Jide (38:27)
Because when I...
Ann Barbour (38:30)
Yeah, was, yeah, you saw me, good read. When I first started meditating, I was meditating to be like a monk or something, like perfectly like Zen. And so I, you know, I'd be curious what you have to say, but the greatest thing about being a bad meditator, for lack of a better word, or just like laughing with yourself within it, and then the more you do it, the more you're actually able to bring it up in your life, which is the goal. I mean, I think to be able to be present, you know, that way, but.
Just tell me, I just wanted to back you up and be like, did you start meditating with your perfectionist mask?
Jide (39:02)
Yeah.
absolutely. And I will say too that I don't know if you've heard that, but there's really no thin as a bad meditation. So, you know, what we call a bad meditation is a judgment that we place on it, but really just sitting with yourself, even if it doesn't go the way you expect, still meditation. But yes, when I started the practice of meditation, I...
Ann Barbour (39:08)
People quote for that reason.
Jide (39:29)
So I don't know if this is my background as an engineer, but research is a really foundational aspect of the work that I do. So of course, I wanted to read as much as I could about meditation. I wanted to learn about the practice because I wanted to do it right. So there's this thing about me. It's something that I need to keep shining the light on and be aware of.
I noticed sometimes I tell myself that I don't like doing things I'm not good at, right? So it goes, it all goes back to wanting to be perfect and like wanting to do things the right way. So with meditation, I remember struggling a lot in my early years because I thought I wasn't doing it right. And I would have the cycle of doing the practice, judging my practice and then, you know, shaming myself on not getting it right.
going back to the drawing board and wanting to get it right. And what the journey has taught me is there's really no right or wrong way to do it. Really it's about, can you be with yourself and all there is in that present moment and accept all there is without judgment or attachment. So when I quiet myself down and I go into that space,
connecting with my body and my breath β and truly find presence, there's nothing wrong. There's nothing wrong with me. There's nothing to get right. All there is is just a sense of my true nature and it's that I'm loved and that I'm good enough and there's nothing to prove.
Ann Barbour (41:23)
Hmm, nothing to prove.
Jide (41:25)
Mm-hmm.
Ann Barbour (41:27)
Exhale. All right, so we've got meditation, breath work. Is there anything else? I mean, those are incredibly powerful for me as well. β
Jide (41:28)
Hmm.
Yes. Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Oh, I just, yeah. Yes. So one of... Yeah, well, I think for me it was actually more of a memory or just a remembrance of, you know, practices that I'm introducing into my life. So I just had this remembrance of, oh, this is something I just started doing and it's art. Expressing myself.
Ann Barbour (41:41)
Is there anything else that takes you out of your head of performing? As you, I just saw you go up to your head by the way. know, knowing you witnessed them go in their head, you just, did it.
Yes.
Jide (42:07)
creatively, whoo, which I must tell you that's been a game changer for me. So as you know, as an engineer, it's all about, it's actually, it's truly about getting it right. Like your numbers have to be on point. You can't really afford to make mistakes, right? So my brain is so wired for perfection. β And what I've been finding is there's no
perfection in art, you know? I've been playing around with pottery ceramics, which has been, it's been really fun and more recently painting. So I, and it's interesting because of course, you know, there's a part of me, even when I put the paintbrush to the canvas, there's, I noticed this part of me that wants to do it right.
And then there's another part of me that's like, what does that mean? Like, this is art. Art is art. It's not subjective. There's no right or wrong way to paint. Whatever comes out of your paintbrush on the canvas is, that's it. So I find that practice of painting has actually been really helpful.
and allowing myself to accept myself as being enough, right? So I look at the canvas, I look at the finished work, and that's it. That's it. There's no perfection in an art. It doesn't exist.
Ann Barbour (43:53)
I just love that. And I love the creativity, the freedom to not be following rules. And it's not that you're abandoning all of these great skills that you have for work, but you're like feeding the other side of your brain that has just not had attention for a long time. β you know, and I have, you know, like how great is that to add that aspect in to all your arsenal of wonderful things that you have. that's, it's really funny because I always had a story that I was not artistic.
Right? And so when I go to that, exactly as you were saying that brush on the canvas, I would want to be doing it right. And so I wonder how, I mean, I just laugh. I know so many people that don't try to play games or try art things because they want to be able to be good at it. β I think that, I just think that β it's so inspiring for you to model that for people because you can see that it brings joy.
you can see that it brings a big smile to your face. And I think that that's a great message for right now, especially for everyone who's trying to get it right. All right, is there any... No, shut the door, β I mean, it's like the universe conspired against me on the perfection. All right, yeah, it's good, it's good, it's good.
Jide (45:02)
Absolutely, I couldn't agree more.
I know, yeah, exactly.
Ann Barbour (45:20)
It's great, you know, because now that we shut the door, I want to go up to that's how that goes at our house.
Jide (45:22)
Right, yeah, it would be
so interesting to have you on the side of the table, right? So can see how this plays out for you.
Ann Barbour (45:32)
Yeah, I mean, it's a live great example. Really, it is like, is like, am I gonna pull and am I gonna fight it? Right? Am I gonna fight the the all the variables that I can't control? Or am I just gonna like laugh? It just feels way better to laugh. Because like, otherwise, I'd be tight, I'd be constricted, I'd be like, darting my eyes and you'd like, well, she says she's, you know, a meditator, but obviously she needs to do more work. And I was like, but that's actually the real thing of learning about all
Jide (45:34)
Right, yeah, yeah.
Hmm
Mm-hmm.
Right. Yeah, absolutely.
All right, yeah.
Yeah.
Ann Barbour (46:02)
let's see, what is, what is it? Just, you know, I was thinking we could wrap up with what's your favorite thing you've learned about yourself by.
in your relationships, I'd really like to know by allowing the perfectionism to shift to good enough, how has that impacted your relationships?
Jide (46:36)
Yeah, that's a good question. I think in all honesty, I still see how that's at play. I think that's very present because I want to be accepted. I want to be approved. I want to belong. I want to... Yeah. And I think that's just what it means to be human, right? There's that innate part of my wiring as a human to want all those things. And...
I see how striving for those things by being perfect is actually causing a disconnection or has the potential to cause disconnection. So one of the, you know, I get, I get feedback from people in my life and my friends and, know, and one of the things I keep hearing is like, like, you don't need to do all that. You don't, it doesn't have to be perfect. You don't have to get it right.
you know, that you are accepted just as you are. And actually, quite frankly, your flaws make you human, you know, and your flaws make you who you are. So when you hold back and hide your flaws from us, you're actually creating disconnection. And that's been really helpful feedback for me to...
here and to receive and you know part of my work is internalizing integrating that and learning how to be okay showing up as imperfect showing up as flawed showing up with scars and realizing that that's exactly what it means to be human and connection is one of my values i thrive on connection i
light up β when it comes to just relating and connecting with other humans. And I've noticed that for that bucket to be fully alive for me, it's important that I show up as my true self, flaws and all.
Ann Barbour (48:50)
Yeah, it's great to have β people who you trust to give you the honest feedback. β I think that for so long when I had the perfect persona going so strongly, no one ever tried to give me feedback because A, they didn't think it was needed or B, they were pretty sure it wasn't going to be received because my controller was like fully online. β so practicing
Jide (49:02)
Thank you.
Mm-hmm.
Ann Barbour (49:17)
being more vulnerable with people, being more honest, being more imperfect. It is actually a great way of deepening relationships for me. And it does it, it takes a lot. Like it's not like, you know, the funny thing is, is we can all conceptually understand all these concepts, but the body, you know, we talked about the body keep score, like my body's a little, a lot slow. And so a lot of times I'll understand something before I trust it. And so it really takes a lot of reps. And so.
Jide (49:36)
Mm-hmm. β
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Ann Barbour (49:47)
You know, I know that, and so having patience and grace for ourselves, because I know, I don't know about you, I'm going to make an assumption, but I mean, I'm my hardest critic. I don't need any critics in my life because I'm my hardest critic. And that's not true. I can take constructive feedback, but like a critic, like an external critic, I generally push them away because I'm like, you don't know how tough I am on myself. Like it's enough. Like I can't handle anymore. And so she's a little quieter, which is great. Is your inner critic?
Jide (50:04)
and
Hmm.
Yeah, yeah.
Ooh, yeah.
Ann Barbour (50:16)
Fighting. Yeah, you felt that?
Jide (50:18)
Yeah. Oh, yeah. I can resonate and, yeah, relate to that. I think that the inner critic is probably always going to be there and for good reason, right? I think it's part of our system and we need that part of us to be functioning. I think one of the things that I am, you know, practicing more is creating space in between the moments. So...
And whether it's creating space between the moment the inner critic shows up and the moment that I process what's coming up, right? So I think it's so easy to default to the critic is saying something and then you just believe that it's true. And part of my practice now is creating space in between. And sometimes it's a split second, sometimes it's a few seconds, sometimes it's longer.
really checking in. know, one of my favorite things now it's like head, heart and nervous system. Like checking in with those three parts of all of me and seeing what's coming up before either having a response or a reaction. So yeah, slowing down, you know, I think slowing down has really been a gift for me and, and
Quite frankly, your inner critic isn't always right. You know? So I think having some levity and being able to laugh, you know, at what comes up is important. It's like, yeah, like the thought comes up and then ask yourself, is that true? Right? Is that true?
Ann Barbour (52:05)
Yeah. then is it true? Is it really true? And there's so many times where I'm in that truth, I want it to be true and I'm like, β and someone's like, it's really true. I was like, quit speaking truth at me. I want to be right. I want to be in control. I want to be safe. Don't do that.
Jide (52:08)
Right. Right. β
huh, β huh, yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah, it all makes sense. It all makes sense.
Ann Barbour (52:29)
Well, this has been fun. I feel like we covered a lot of layers and levels of perfection that β just, it was super fun to go with. And thanks for laughing at me with all the imperfection over here and sharing a piece of you. think that anyone who is in, had the privilege of meeting you or I'm sure working with you, like, you you bring a lot of gifts with all of your.
Jide (52:31)
Thank you.
Yeah.
you
you
Ann Barbour (52:56)
ability to take your wisdom and continuous learning and curiosity. And I'm just super grateful for you.
Jide (53:03)
Thank you, Ann this is an absolute joy for me. I think this is, you know, this is what it means to be human, sharing stories and, you know, being able to connect on an authentic level. This this lights me up, so I have a lot of gratitude for you and for this space.
Ann Barbour (53:22)
Amazing. All right. Thanks so much.
Jide (53:23)
Yeah.
All right. Thank you,
Scott Schimmel (53:29)
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