Scott Schimmel (00:01)
Welcome to Unmasking, a podcast for those ready to lead, love and live with more clarity, freedom and truth. We all wear masks and they have helped us all to fit in, stay safe, get ahead. But over time, those same masks start to weigh us down. They disconnect us from our joy, our energy and our true self. This show is an invitation to explore 15 of those masks that we wear to be accepted, admired or in control.
and then to get really curious about what they're really costing us. I'm your host, Ann Barbour, and in each episode, we'll look at one mask and explore what it protects, what it hides, and what's possible without it. I invite you to join me in unmasking. We'll laugh, we'll probably cringe, but we'll be real.
Ann Barbour (00:49)
Hi and welcome to our second episode of Unmasking and I have the honor and privilege of inviting my friend Donna Placio to join me for a talk about our caretaker mask. And the best way to get to know why we are going to enjoy talking about this so much is that I first met Donna a couple of years ago through mutual friend and then
After a couple of years, I decided to join. She's leading a forum with the conscious as a Conscious Leadership Forum. And then she also is a coach and she is a beautiful, wonderful human. And I'm honored to have you here. First, I'd love to have you just explain to tell everyone, tell everyone a little bit about yourself.
Donna Placio (01:39)
Hmm. Thank you, Ann. Thank you for having me. Feeling a lot of joy and excitement around doing this with you. And I might add that more like two or three people kept saying, you need to meet Ann. So we, we met a few years ago, which is wonderful. And I'm really enjoying the time we're having together in forum. As Ann mentioned, I'm a Conscious Leadership Coach and
The work of Conscious Leadership and Conscious Leadership Group has been transformational for me. So I can't help but want to share it with as many people as I can. I started in my career in the world as a physical therapist for 20 years, and that I loved very much. And through my time there, I was exposed to Conscious Leadership Group and really got to know myself.
much better. And I left the clinic in probably about 2016. And since then, I have been coaching, leading circles, retreats, and it is something that brings me such joy in life to be able to share these practices and tools. I'm a lifelong learner. think, Annie, you and I have that in common. And always excited to dive into conversations like we're about to have.
Ann Barbour (03:06)
Yeah, and just to circle back, not everyone knows what the Conscious Leadership Group is. Would you just give some examples of some of the commitments that are kind of fun to play with that make a difference in your life? Because I think it has to do a little bit with masks as well.
Donna Placio (03:10)
Mm-hmm.
Yes. Thank you for so I did my coaches training through the conscious leadership group. And I love thinking about it when I'm introducing to a group. What does it mean to be conscious? I mean, just by definition of the word means to be awake. So a lot about what we do is context coaching in the sense of at any given time I'm being with the world.
in a certain way, I'm either being with the world in drama and reactivity or trust and curiosity. So, and we believe that, I believe, I'll just put it that we are the powerful creators of the life in front of us as is. And so we use the tools to develop self-awareness or deeper self-awareness of our patterns so that
we can be aware of perhaps how life is happening to us and shift in a way that we are creating a life by us and taking responsibility. So as Ann mentioned, the 15 commitments are guiding posts that we use in our work, in our circle that we work together. you know, the very first commitment is taking 100 % responsibility for the life you are creating, no more or no less. So that
you know, to me is the most important commitment. And then there's 14 other ones that help support that work. Yeah.
Ann Barbour (04:53)
That one's super alive for me too. And I think it's a great bridge into talking about the caretaker mask because it's about taking that 100%, no more, no less. And so I guess my first question to you would be is like, what made you choose? I let you choose what mask you wanted to talk about. And so just tell me more.
Donna Placio (04:59)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, so caregiver mask is what we're talking about, or helper. that's a mask that sometimes I don't know where that starts and I end because I can be so identified with it. And as mentioned in the beginning, Ann, about 100 % responsibility when I'm in drama and in my human normal natural
Ann Barbour (05:21)
yeah.
Donna Placio (05:45)
condition most of the time, I am often taking too much responsibility when I'm in caregiver mode. It's if I'm taking too much or not enough and I'm feeling like a victim. But the mask that you asked, well, that I kind of gravitate toward caregiver, often I'm taking way too much responsibility in relationships. So for example, you and I in relationship, the way I love...
Identifying consciousness math is actually different. It's you have a hundred percent responsibility and, Donna has a hundred percent. So at any given time, if I'm over indexing and in Ann's business and taking too much responsibility, you know, I could be taking 105 or 120 so that, you know, she only has to take 80. So something along those lines. So caregiver, um, why it speaks to me, um, you know, in my natural
go to personality structure. I can tend to, when I'm not conscious, when I'm unconscious, I can take too much responsibility often. yeah.
Ann Barbour (06:53)
Makes sense. Me too.
And curious like when do you think that you learned that mask or when did that kind of show up in your life?
Donna Placio (07:06)
Yes, that's a great question. And I appreciate the invitation to be with that and go back. And I can't remember a time I was not in that. I am the oldest of nine children. So, you know, I would say I was had those behaviors before all the rest of the eight were born. But that definitely reinforced that, you know, I was a little if you ask my mom, I was like, or ask my siblings. You know, I was like a little
drill sergeant sometimes or a little extra mom on the side and, you know, really learned early on that no one said this specifically, at least that, you know, that I would get love and attention and from being needed and taking care of others. So I just naturally was born into that role. And again, I was, I think I would.
say I was an extension of my parents in some ways and in a very vibrant, chaotic household. Yeah.
Ann Barbour (08:10)
I
can't imagine nine. felt like that with my brothers and I, which was three. So we were a third of what, of what that, that energy and dynamics that you had going on. And what is the age spacing of your siblings just to get an idea of nine,
Donna Placio (08:21)
Yeah.
Hmm. So that make me tell you how old I am, which I'm actually,
I'm 52. So, um, and my youngest sister is, uh, let's see, 21 years younger than me. Yeah. So we have a wide range and I was the actually the only child for about five and a half years. So I did have some time alone, but I learned real fast when my next sister came on how to.
You know, she was my little baby as well.
Ann Barbour (09:00)
was the point in your life where you realized there was a crossroads and that the mask, did you realize even you were wearing it? When did you realize you were wearing the Caretaker mask? Yeah. Did you ever.
Donna Placio (09:15)
No, yes, obviously now. I mean, that's why I'm doing this work too. think I realized in my work with conscious leadership, started realizing, you know, really helped cultivate such deep self-awareness of personas that we talk about. And then Enneagram,
Ann Barbour (09:17)
Yeah.
Donna Placio (09:41)
you know, really helped me to see my go-to patterns and ways of being my beliefs, my way of seeing the world. So I guess to answer your question, I must have been in my 40s. I mean, like I'm 52. So it's been in the last 15 years, I would say that I just started realizing that is not who I actually am. And just as I mentioned, the Enneagram, it's a
personality typing system, if you will. And it is one of the most beautiful tools for me of self-awareness. There's nine different types that we're all parts of, but one that's your go-to where you gravitate. so mine just happens to be the helper, the caregiver, Enneagram too. So when I started being coached myself by some of my amazing mentors,
Jim and Diana and Debbie, who also is an Enneagram expert, I started realizing parts about me through that tool that essentially helped me see how I run myself and without even thinking of it. And so once I use tools like that, or like we use the drama triangle for patterns that you're familiar with, there's no way I can interrupt
that automatic pattern if I don't know in the first place. So using all of those tools was really helpful for me to witness myself kind of zoom out. And when I am, you know, especially when I'm under stress, I mean, I can go right into this caregiver mode because that's the way that I'm just so conditioned to being, you know, and I zoom out. Yeah. And I would say, I mean,
Ann Barbour (11:37)
Yeah.
Donna Placio (11:39)
This is a mask, it can be thought of as a mask or a jacket you put on like if we think of the level of persona, it's not really who I am at my essence. I think, you know, any kind of caregiver or sibling mother sometimes can identify with this kind of way of being. So it's a beautiful part of me and a superpower. And when left to run me versus being chosen by me,
Ann Barbour (11:47)
Mm.
Donna Placio (12:09)
can be a really, can feel problematic and not helpful.
Ann Barbour (12:15)
Yeah, yeah, let's just play a little bit with what happens when, you know, it's running you. And so what energetically, happens, like, what do you notice happening that you now, or now that you're playing with the content and, you know, you know what's happening, whether you're conscious or unconscious, just, just, just to help people who are listening, who may be hearing it for the first time, what I think would be really lovely is to say, like, you know, these are the symptoms I experienced, we all experienced different symptoms, but, you know, I'd be happy.
Donna Placio (12:42)
Yeah, I mean, can
especially speak to my personal experience. So if I'm backtracking just a moment, so you saw that, you know, I came from this large family. I always knew that I'd want to be in some sort of health care, caretaking. I knew I'd want to have children eventually, but my dad's a physician, so I was drawn to, you know, helping others medicine. So I became a physical therapist and which I
Like I said, I loved that career. And in the way that it showed up for me at times, when I was over indexing on wearing this mask, where the mask was actually, like we say sometimes in our work, driving the bus versus, you know, it was in charge. What showed up for me was real lack of boundaries on my part. A lot of burnout. Looking back, even physical too.
just really forgetting myself in many ways. that, yeah, that would look like me working all day and seeing, you know, 12 to 15 patients and maybe forgetting to take a break. You know, that was just, that could be a norm for me at times. So that was one of the ways that.
you know, it showed up in a way that wasn't of service to me. And I think part of identifying these masks is so that they can be of service to you. We don't want to get rid of that. You know, I might be jumping ahead a little bit, but it is a beautiful part of me now that I've gotten to know it better. She just gets me in some trouble. And I want to say I still have to be hyper aware of.
when this mask takes over.
Ann Barbour (14:40)
Right, because if you think about however many years it was, like, but a solid part of your life that you've been alive, that you were unaware that this thing was just running, that, you know, you obviously thought it was who you were for a majority of it. This is, you know, my identity versus this is, you know, I am, I'm way more than this, but this is a part of me that, that I like, that I, that can be of service when I choose it. Right. I think so many of us believe that, that like how,
we're externally motivated for things is actually not who we are. But it can be in such good service and it can be such a lovely thing to bring forward in the world. But like, I know, I've shared this before too, but when I was in caretaker mode and the boys were young and all kinds of things were happening, I was not taking care of me. And then, you know, my appendix ruptured and, you know,
Donna Placio (15:17)
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Ann Barbour (15:38)
It's amazing how, and my body was screaming at me, right? And we just keep going because everyone else's needs were more important than our own. I guess that brings me to.
Donna Placio (15:48)
Yeah. There's a bit about
that that makes me feel like, you know, how did I not know? So there, there is a little bit of, I think it's, you know, maybe shame that came on or, know, because there is a way that investigating these masks, anagram, persona, you know, there's a shadow side of it too, you know, that I realized
that I had to get to love too, that in some ways I was giving to secure love and to get something, you know, and getting coming to terms with why that happened or why I thought that I had to do that. Yeah, so I'm just having, I think with it comes some grace of why we started doing things that way. And, you know, and once you know, maybe you can choose something else.
Yeah.
Ann Barbour (16:48)
Right.
And knowing you, it's such a beautiful part of you. I'm just, when you say grace, like just grace for forgetting that you're in charge versus the persona, right? Yeah. And then, and then I know you can do this too, but what I love about what we talk about a lot in forum is that we're able to laugh at ourselves about it instead of it being that shameful thing. And to do it with other people in a group is very freeing to be able to laugh collectively about our own.
Donna Placio (16:57)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
as.
Mm-hmm.
Yes. Yes. And I would say, that when you're not, think I know that we, when we are, that's the beautiful beauty of having learning partners like you and, and a group that you can help remind me of my blind spots, you know, when I'm forgetting, because each of these masks has blind spots as well, you know, that you just can't see. So we talk a lot in group about holding up the mirror for each other, you know,
Ann Barbour (17:47)
Yeah.
Donna Placio (17:48)
Yeah.
Ann Barbour (17:49)
With a little bit of a 30,000 foot view, what do you think the biggest flying spots are for whether what you've personally experienced or what you've seen in form that would both would be either or would be useful to hear?
Donna Placio (18:02)
Yeah, that's a great question with the caregiver specifically, right? Yeah. Yeah. So big blind spots are that I have needs in the first place. And it almost feels silly, but it's a blind spot for me to know that I have have
Ann Barbour (18:05)
Yeah, with a caregiver.
Donna Placio (18:27)
some feelings and needs. Now, granted, I've been working on this a long time. So this is probably my life's work here, right? But part of the caregiver, the two enneagram is to, know, it's called pride. And it's not pride in the sense that we think of it necessarily, you know, conventionally, it's more of like, so self forgetting that you, you believe it's some
some extent I don't actually have needs and others go ahead of me. So that's a blind spot for me for sure.
Ann Barbour (19:06)
Would you like
to share the acronym that was created for an order of operations as a reminder for the blind spot?
Donna Placio (19:10)
fun.
Yeah. So if we're going a layer deeper to, um, and what you're referring to, well, in growth, I actually, first of all, for whoever's listening, I think if you're interested, you know, Enneagram is a great tool to just get to know and love yourself more, understand yourself. And so in stress, you go to one point in, uh, growth, you go to another point. So when I am actually, are you, you're referring to Sheb, right? Is that the acronym? Sheb?
Ann Barbour (19:45)
No, I was referring to the, me first, then you, MF.
Donna Placio (19:52)
yeah, you helped me with that one. I have all kinds of acronyms. was like, you may want to add that part. Okay.
Ann Barbour (19:56)
This is
how language gets really like here I was like, yes, this is our acronym because I was like laughing because that's the acronym I needed to be reminded of in the moment as well. Yeah.
Donna Placio (20:05)
Okay.
I love that. Edit that
out. one of the, okay, so what you're referring in one of our exchanges, I have this whole outlook when I'm in the trance of my mask. When I am, when the mask is choosing me, I'm always you first than me. So that's one way this shows up in my life. And I think it was you Ann that might've said, what if you flipped it me first than you? So.
when I am moving toward growth, I actually prioritize my needs first. And then I tend to everyone. And so that is a big part of my coaching when I'm working with women and men to how can I fill my cup first so that I'm overflowing with energy, love, time to give to you. yeah, that's the acronym you're talking about. But when I'm wearing the mask of
caregiver, it's always you first than me. And I just want to say, Ann, from personal experience, that's exhausting. That's the cost of it. You know, physically, energetically, emotionally, to the point where, for me, what it showed up like was resentment sometimes too.
feeling like, isn't anyone understanding what I need when I can so easily tune into what their needs are? So as I started waking up to these patterns, it wasn't a love affair immediately with these parts of me. There was a lot that came up for me initially and having to learn how to communicate better with those around me.
because I assumed since my superpower was tuning into what everyone needed before they even knew, they should do the same for me.
Yeah.
Ann Barbour (22:14)
And how did that play out with levels of connection for you? Because, I mean, no matter what mask you're wearing, if you're overdoing it in any way, you're actually, in theory, creating some disconnection for the very thing you want, right? And so, since you've been able to play with taking it off, or I would just say prioritizing better, like, because it's always a part of you. It's not like it's like, you know, you just...
Donna Placio (22:33)
Mm-hmm.
Ann Barbour (22:40)
pick up and put down because I think it's the essence of who you are. But give us an idea of like what it allows in your relationships that wasn't there when you were just energetically all in and they were just receiving.
Donna Placio (22:55)
Yeah,
such a great question. it just allows for such deeper connection and reciprocity. People want to give to me and help me. And I was blocking that. there's a level of grief with that, that I wasn't letting people love me. So I would say,
It's clunky in the beginning when I was realizing things as you know, like with our work, when we start identifying, first I realized what I was, the racket I was running and the patterns that, I am, you know, with that came a lot of sadness and anger and anger at myself and how did I let this go on, you know, and then with our work it's...
it's identifying these awareness, identification of patterns, and then just some sweet acceptance for myself eventually came. And that's where the shift came and allowing me to be vulnerable. So with relationship,
asking people for help, which was like so foreign, letting them vulnerably know that I need things directly. It can still be very hard for me to do that. Getting in touch with my needy one and my needy side. I hit her for so many years.
And then the transition from again, this is a work in progress, but from pride that I don't need anything. I have no needs to humility of, yeah, I do have needs and also humility that everyone will be okay if I don't take care of them. You know, that was an end. I had some really hard knocks and lessons in life that I believe were purposeful to sideline me.
Ann Barbour (24:51)
you
Donna Placio (25:01)
you know, medically and otherwise where I couldn't help people and learned that they got along just fine without me.
Ann Barbour (25:12)
Yeah.
Donna Placio (25:14)
There's a big lesson
learned in there. And also that, you know, if I'm helping so much, I'm robbing people of their growth. I'm robbing them of their empowerment. So there were some real, there continues to be beautiful lessons that come forth. have two children, as you know, that people have a path and I was getting in the way of their path.
Ann Barbour (25:42)
And know, caregiving, caretaking is such a natural thing for a mother, and it's so easy to do. And I guess I'm thinking of this in terms of boundaries, right? Because like, as they change each level and they grow, I mean, one of the things that I struggled with was, I mean, letting go, obviously, but also setting the boundary of trust that it's not mine to do anymore. And like having a trust in that and, um,
I'm just curious what your experience has been. Your kids are, so my boys are in their 20s and your girls are just a little bit behind. But since it's such a strong persona for you, just curious what you had to say on that and any wisdom for all the women who like, I'm doing it out of love, but it's love without boundaries. And so that seems to be super alive and I see that a lot. And I appreciate it, right? It's not like,
Donna Placio (26:31)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I mean,
Ann Barbour (26:41)
I understand it, but I also think, ugh, if I had only, it's like creating something you wish you had had. was like, if someone had just tapped me on the shoulder to say, actually, you just need some better boundaries.
Donna Placio (26:45)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. And I think there's an evolutionary.
part of it all because and even hormonally as we're, you aging that we were, you know, when you have babies and when you have, you know, you are a caregiver, you are, they are solely reliant on you. Right. And so obviously our children are growing and then they learn to make their own decisions. I love what you're pointing at because, you know, my kids are 21 and 14.
A prompt for myself often is something that you said, what's mine to do. It's so easy to stay in those automatic go-to patterns as we talked about where I can just do it for her. I can figure it out. And then she doesn't have to work as hard or make it easier. And it could be my child. It could be my husband. So a good way to interrupt myself. And I think a big part of conscious leadership in the work we're doing is
to really accurately see your patterns so that you can put a pause and maybe choose something else. So it's really easy though to get in the trance of your dance or your pattern. So asking what's mine to do is really a great question to stop. Yeah.
Ann Barbour (28:18)
Yeah, and it's hard when I was just out of care, just to share like, so when Joe got sober in 2012, I shifted to the kids to wanting to protect them because I was horrified that I had been a participant in an environment because it was, you know, a co-creation of an environment and went to protect them in my head and out of love with, I would say,
Donna Placio (28:27)
Mm-hmm.
Ann Barbour (28:48)
not clear boundaries and and gosh, it's just amazing how fast we think we've kind of gotten through something and then we go somewhere else and we just redirect it without being aware of what's going on and with the love of kids, I would say that just to share is like spousal thing is one energy, but protecting and taking care of those kids.
Donna Placio (29:04)
Yeah.
Ann Barbour (29:17)
I know from my experience was like, it was deep fear that I had done something that had caused harm. And that ferocious protector in me was just, you know, totally went into her lane to do many things that she shouldn't have done. And I did it all out of love. And I just think, you know, that was obviously for me to learn and for me to kind of honor, but you know, it's easy to fall into it as a mother's and I'm sure as a father too.
Donna Placio (29:23)
Yeah.
Yeah, I want it again, like I just
Ann Barbour (29:46)
can't speak to them because I'm the mother, but it's hard not to get drawn in by it. I also just want to honor that because I did time and time again and I still do. Right?
Donna Placio (29:47)
Yeah.
still want to honor that I still get drawn in. I
want to honor I still get drawn in and I have a Tiger Mom mask. I just call her that or you know, and it's I will protect my kids at all odds and she still shows up. the idea is, well, and I just want to pause and honor that part of you because it is honoring these parts and grace for, you know, if I knew better, I would have done differently.
I was always doing the best that I could with what I had under duress, you know?
So that, and that we don't want to, I think what's really important to note and for anyone who's listening, we don't want to get rid of these parts. They all have such beautiful golden essence that make us who we are, that we get to choose, you know, their beautiful golden qualities versus perhaps, you know, when we talk in our terms of
below the line when I'm really reactive, like I don't choose, it sort of chooses me and takes over. So I guess what I wanted to just circle back to is that the more I've done this work, the more I just have self-awareness when she shows up, my caregiver. And I thank her and thank God for her. She really stepped in and did a lot of important things for me, for my family.
And when she's over directing, there's a real cost to me. So it's the both end.
Ann Barbour (31:40)
I do feel like it's the beauty of being maybe, how are we gonna age ourselves at the moment? Middle-aged, hopefully. You're not, you're younger than me. Sorry. But the wisdom to be able to be in this place and to be able to laugh at this, what it once felt like a serious life or death situation, I'm just super grateful to even the ability to kind of cringely be like, me too.
Donna Placio (32:04)
Yeah.
And I feel like, no, I want to own an honor. We are middle-aged. I haven't been living in a long time. Because that comes all of this. We had to go through that path to get to where we are now. And so we can look back at it with some wisdom. And, you know, I think our children are going to go through their own path. And maybe with this awareness, maybe I won't interfere so much. But if you ask my kids, they probably say, I still interfere.
Ann Barbour (32:09)
Yeah, I know we are.
you
Donna Placio (32:35)
You know, it is all born from love, but at least we might know we're doing it with some awareness.
Ann Barbour (32:41)
Totally, yes, exactly. I guess I have one final question and thought or thing for you is there's always something that you would have loved to have shared that the person didn't ask or in the conversation you're like, I wish they would have asked me this because it feels super alive. Is there anything, you know, regarding your experience with a caregiver mask or?
an egram 2 that like, is there anything that we didn't touch upon that would be a difference maker for some somebody listening?
Donna Placio (33:12)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Gosh, didn't, that's a good, in the moment, I noticed them like a little emotion behind my eyes and, you know, in group we've been talking a lot about the love story. And I think this is part of it, the, you know, coming home to yourself and just really, I'm feeling a lot of gratitude and love for my caregiver is what it's coming down to. And,
Ann Barbour (33:21)
Thanks.
Donna Placio (33:48)
thanking her for working so hard. And just really grateful for this work that it's allowed me to get in touch with those parts of me. Yeah, so I'm just feeling a lot of gratitude. And what I want people to know if they're listening is that I guess it's never too late to come home to yourself, start the process of really...
feeling truly alive and loving yourself. And from that place, that place, then you can fully give. So I would say to all the caregivers out there.
Ann Barbour (34:31)
Yeah.
Donna Placio (34:33)
You have such capacity for love and taking care of and if you just turned a little bit of that toward yourself, how infinitely your capacity to give will get starting with me first, then you as we just talked about.
Ann Barbour (34:59)
Amazing, amazing. Well, thank you for sharing your wonderful wisdom and with us today. And I know that it will be a gift to whoever gets the chance to listen.
Donna Placio (35:03)
Hmm.
Hopefully it was a gift to talk to you and always a gift again, just talking about it helps me come home to myself. Yeah.
Ann Barbour (35:19)
Right, right. No shame,
just a little bit of laughter and maybe a couple cringes.
Donna Placio (35:23)
Yeah,
sure, sure. Thank you for having me. Okay.
Ann Barbour (35:29)
Thank you.
Scott Schimmel (35:33)
Most people don't realize they're wearing a mask, which hides their true power without even knowing it. But the people you work with, your friends, your family, and the world need you to step into the power of your authentic self. Take our free mass assessments when cover which of the 15 masks you are unconsciously wearing that shapes your life and how you can start to break free. Start your journey at AikiPartners.com and step into the power of your authentic self.
