Curt Cronin (00:00)
Welcome to Making the Impossible Inevitable podcast. This show's for those who see progress as a calling, not just a choice hosted by former Navy SEAL and transformational guide, Curt Cronin. Each episode explores the mindset strategies and stories of extraordinary leaders who've turned the impossible into reality. These episodes are more than just conversations. They're a challenge to you to expand your capacity, shatter inner limitations and lead with unshakable purpose together.
Let's make the impossible inevitable.
Curt Cronin (00:36)
Welcome to the Impossible to Inevitable podcast, where we dive into the moments, mindsets, and maps that transform life-altering obstacles into breakthroughs that serve humanity at scale. Today's guest is someone whose story lives at the intersection of the improbable survival and unshakable spirit. Keiron McCammon is many things, seasoned tech entrepreneur, world-class endurance athlete, and one-handed paraglider who has literally soared across continents. But none of those titles come close to capturing the essence of his journey.
In 2006, while paragliding in the Andes of Columbia, Keiron collided with power lines that suffered catastrophic injuries that would claim his left hand and nearly his life. What followed wasn't just a recovery, it was a total reinvention. One that required navigating trauma, identity, and the brutal calculus of choosing to let go of what no longer served him, literally and metaphorically. Keiron didn't just get back up, he charged forward. Ten months, ten triathlons, multiple Ironmans, summit of Kilmajaro.
a memoir on the works, and perhaps most notably, a deep presence and spiritual clarity that radiates from him like a tuning fork for grace, grit, and growth. In this conversation we unpack the model he now lives by, accept what is, forgive what was, let go of what no longer serves, and thrive through adversity. It's a road map for anyone who's ever found themselves in the freefall between life before and life after. And while Keiron's
Let's dive in.
Curt Cronin (02:14)
Hello everyone and welcome to the Impossible to Inevitable podcast. Today's gonna be an electric session with my dear friend Keiron McCammon. We've gone through so many different adventures and journeys together that I have no idea where he's gonna take this one. So Keiron, welcome.
Keiron McCammon (02:30)
Good morning, how are you sir?
Curt Cronin (02:33)
fantastic. So as one of my heroes that's done so many impossible things, where would you like to kick off on what's something that was impossible in your life that you've made inevitable or that has already come to pass?
Keiron McCammon (02:49)
impossible that became inevitable. Well, I could say, guess, shorting across power lines was pretty impossible, but I made it inevitable. So does that count? Yeah, I'm not sure I recommend that one. As I always say, electrifying experience, not one I would care to repeat or recommend.
Curt Cronin (03:02)
Absolutely, Kent.
Well that one's
one that was probably is now inevitable but I think that the part that was impossible was your journey to healing and your journey to being more whole to follow than before.
Keiron McCammon (03:33)
It was certainly at the time that was a completely uncharted path. Both myself and my wife, Kerry, yes, it was after, as I say, after waking up on the ground, after colliding with the power lines, I guess everything was upside from that point forward, but probably the most uncertain that I...
have ever been or could ever be in life I guess in terms of what the hell was going to happen next particularly since we were still in Columbia at that point.
Curt Cronin (04:08)
Well, I should have known of all the stories, that would be the most intimate one that you would dive into. I would love to... Can you give everybody a little bit of context as to what led you up to that moment? And then I think it's an unbelievable journey of...
and possibilities made inevitable.
Keiron McCammon (04:33)
Yeah, guess the β little bit of the backstory. I was on a paragliding trip which is flying around with a canopy and had been flying for probably about a part of 12 years at that point, various parts of the world. And just was that we had just launched my...
First startup, was one of the co-founders, the chief technical officer and co-founder at a company called Kaboodle, which was a precursor to what Pinterest is today. But we just launched, after a year of heads down, building out the technology and all the infrastructure and did a big, you know, I'll see you, my partner β did a big demo.
And then as a reward I headed off on a 10 day paragliding trip in the Andes in Columbia, South America. And it was on the penultimate day of that trip that we were flying to a new area and I was flying cross country somewhere I'd never really flown before.
on our way to a new location for that evening with a chase car. My wife with my guide who had a bad foot from a previous week's guiding so I ended up being...
flying alone in the air. guy I was flying with had landed and I couldn't see where he landed so you know the good old ego was, I'm gonna fly the furthest today and decided to fly on into unknown territory. And don't really remember a lot. have very fragmented recall of discreet moments of just kind of awareness, know somewhat alarming in a way of just from
the point that I remember deciding to fly on, being flying in kind of the back side of a ridge which is never a good place to be given the air turbulence, getting lower as the sun was setting and over a bunch of pine trees I think it was, thinking well I don't know good options to land down there and trying to push forward into the wind to get back to the ridge and then the next thing
I remember at that point was coming over the top of kind of the null of a hill and seeing a landing field that just on the edge of a small village thinking, okay, this is great, made it. And as I was coming over that, the next thing I remember is seeing power lines running kind of across.
where I was flying and I'm right-handed so immediately kind of pulled the control handle to turn the wing and what I didn't realize and I don't remember the rest was there was another set of power lines running down the right hand side and so I ended up flying into those lines and as best I can piece it together afterwards bodily probably bodily shorting across lines with my right leg and my
which I don't have now, but my left hand and...
You know, in those things, whether it's paragliding or skydiving, if you ever collide with power lines, typically you don't get electrocuted. Unless, like me, you probably touch both two lines. But the fall to the ground would kill you. you know, I guess you could say it was pretty impossible for me to end up sitting on the ground in my paragliding harness, still holding the control handles with my paraglider wrapped around the lines above as I kind of looked up and I'm sitting there literally
you know, the same distance as the lines of my paraglider.
you know, stretching to the ground thinking, you wow, I guess the fall didn't, you know, didn't kill me either. Wasn't really sure what happened at that point. But I was lucky enough that a couple of locals and I think maybe remember some shouts before I hit the lines. You know, that's hard for me to piece together, but they came running up the hill and were able to get me off the hill into that beaten up truck. Got to the local clinic in this small little village where,
20 minutes or so later my chase car, with carrying it, was able to come β and meet me. I was in pretty bad shape at that point. Do remember I...
Curt Cronin (09:15)
So Ciaran, you're a master
of the skies, just to make sure for everyone else. I thought it was amazing that we used to jump out of planes at 25,000 feet on oxygen, and we might go 15 to 25 kilometers. But in this case, you're literally soaring at altitudes from where to where. I think on this journey, you'd go in 60 to 100 miles, easy in a journey, I believe.
Keiron McCammon (09:18)
Ha ha.
Yeah, mean, you know, in my flying career, I guess I'd flown 12, 13, 14,000 feet, depending on where you're taking up from. just ride the kind of the same as the birds do, same as a glider does, just ride the thermals. And then you've, think my longest flight was probably over four hours and... β
50, 60 plus kilometres or so and I was a relative, you know, that was not extreme distances or time in the air by any means. But yeah, it's, you you go flying in challenging terrain, it's certainly an adventure sport, but it was, yeah, was amazing for the time that I got to do it.
Curt Cronin (10:17)
So just so everyone's like, so you're, get to be the privilege of being in the most remote locations, the most gorgeous scenery, the most crazy mountains. And so you walk through it, but imagine taking off going 50 or 60 miles in a foreign country in the jungle in the middle of nowhere. And then.
One, power lines appear. Two, two sets of power lines appear. Three, your guide for the day is out. And all of sudden, like, so the stack of things to now lead you to, I think it was what, just off, hanging, waking up, hanging just off the ground, in the middle of nowhere.
Keiron McCammon (10:55)
Yeah, was the old stacking of events that looking back on it is actually, as many people I think said, through the following journey or the journey that followed after. And again, I count myself extremely lucky to be alive. Any one of those things could have easily...
been terminal for sure, but touching power lines. Whatever reason, that impossibility of surviving that obviously became inevitable, not necessarily through my own planning, but just the nature of the circumstances. So it was...
Curt Cronin (11:40)
to include you as
I recall you were hanging just over or just near a road.
Keiron McCammon (11:46)
There was kind of a small landing area down in a small village and I could see the road that's why it's going to come in and think, oh this is going be easy, I'll land right by the road. But just imagine a kind of a knoll of a hill and obviously it's, know, as is often in many places in rural places you've got power lines strung between valleys and I think that's ultimately what I ended up colliding with.
But I was so, it felt, at that point from when I could remember, was like, the sense of relief that I'd made it to the landing area right by a road where I would get picked up. And then obviously all hell breaks loose at that point.
Curt Cronin (12:29)
So first the impossible of humans flying. you've just done humans have been in flight for four hours at this point. And now you're starting to wake up and.
I don't remember if you spoke Spanish or not, like, yeah, so fundamentally you wake up, folks are grabbing you, taking out your harness, and throwing you in the back of a truck.
Keiron McCammon (12:54)
Yeah, mean, you know, once I came to on the ground, I had no idea of what, at that point, what had really happened, other than obviously I collided and fell to the ground. So I didn't know what the prognosis was going to be, I guess. But my left hand, you see, holding the control lines, the handles.
I remember having to pry the fingers of my left hand because they obviously wouldn't operate at that point. So had to β pry the control handle out of my fingers thinking, okay, there's something wrong there. Didn't know that my leg was badly burnt either. I did call and had cell phones.
Curt Cronin (13:36)
And were you shocky?
Were you shocky? Were you... I mean, did you feel like you fully coherent?
Keiron McCammon (13:40)
No, I mean, that's the point. think,
yet again, I can only piece these bits together, but once I came to On the Ground, I had no idea I'd been electrocuted, at least, you know, as much as I can think about it back then. I don't know if I knew what had happened, but just knew I'd fallen. So I knew I was injured, but again, didn't know how badly.
We did have cell phones, so I remember calling my wife who was in the chase car. I don't speak any Spanish, there's my wife at that point. My guide was Colombian. So I remember talking to her and saying, hey, you know, I've had an accident, you know, I'm on the ground. And she said, oh, my dear, have you broken anything? Obviously, very common, you know, if you're going to fall, you would break something. I oh, no, no, I'm all good.
and there's a couple of locals here you pass it to Richie who was my guide who was driving the car and I passed my phone to the two locals they were at least able to talk to each other and explain you know I was in this small village called Aratoga and where the hell we were so he could head that way and where they were going to take me and then I vaguely remember the trip in this beaten up kind of Ford pickup I think or something along those lines flatbed
or you know with a bed on it and ended up in the local clinic where they were busy obviously cutting all my clothes off and trying to assess the damage so yeah as I say interesting times.
Curt Cronin (15:17)
I can't tell you how many times I've gone days without cell reception in locations like that. another miracle is stacked up in your behavior on your behalf that you can get communications with your wife and with your guide.
Keiron McCammon (15:29)
Yeah, and the two locals who obviously didn't know who probably, you know, didn't even know what the hell I was doing hanging below power lines, if you like. yeah, no, I mean, it, exactly. It was the, what was it, the proverbial Icarus flown too close to the sun, for sure. I think that there is an element of that parable that rings true.
Curt Cronin (15:41)
Green Goat falling from the sky.
So get to the first clinic and tell me what's changing for you now. You went from tech entrepreneur, know, soaring around the world, following sport around the world and having the time of your life. And now all of a sudden you're in a clinic starting to figure out how badly injured am I.
Keiron McCammon (16:17)
Yeah, mean that's obviously where, and I don't remember being in any pain, so obviously the body is an amazing thing. I guess the adrenaline and everything was pumping, but the realization of okay, you this, you know, I to be helped off the hill and couldn't really walk, so some, you know...
you could start to see, and I don't necessarily remember the smell of burning flesh, but obviously they started to cut everything off and wash everything down with saline. You could kind of get an idea that something pretty serious had happened at that point, but I was still pretty out of it. Hard at that point to assess. think it took us...
Probably from there it was an hour and a half-ish in the back of it. I remember them loading us into the ambulance vaguely. I was sitting kind of somewhat upright in a stretcher. It looked like a hearse. It wasn't like an ambulance ambulance. It was more like a hearse-sized ambulance. Yeah, exactly. It was like the Ghostbusters ambulance. But it wasn't even wide. Maybe I'm making that up.
Curt Cronin (17:26)
Like a Ghostbusters ambulance.
Keiron McCammon (17:34)
But poor Kerry had to with me in the back of the, crammed into the back of this thing. I don't know what it was like for her. was, you know, at that point late in the day, hot. mean, the smell of burning flesh must have permeated the back of the ambulance. And we're just winding these same roads that I've been flying over, β mountain tracks and roads.
switch turns and everything so you know it must have been an awful, awful experience for her and I was you know probably dosed up on something by then I would imagine and fairly out of it but I remember sitting once we got to the local hospital which was actually a pretty reasonable, in Bukharamanga it was pretty reasonable
facility the first thing they want to do is an ultrasound I just remember at that point kind of praying that as they move this kind of ultrasound down my arm to assess the damage that now I could see the veins pulsing and was just kind of
praying is not necessarily my thing per se, just know praying that the blood flow would still be flowing, but you know clearly as they went down and further down the arm, forearm and to the hand.
You know, I think that was the first realisation, okay, there's some pretty major damage here. So that was the beginning, I think, of the implications of what had just happened, setting in. And then the process of, because we were in Columbia in that hospital for five days, three surgeries before we got medivacked.
back to the US and Mercy Hospital in Miami. We lived in San Francisco. Took us two plus months, over two months, maybe three months before we got back home. And then it was, you know, that was the beginning of, obviously, you know, all you can do is focus on the here and now at that point, but just kind of going through various surgeries, not speaking Spanish in Columbia, my guide translating a bit when he was there, but.
Yeah, mean, the experience of being in that environment to the point where, you know, they were talking about, you know, needing to amputate my hand and thinking, yeah, we've got to get out. β We need to get out of here. had medical evacuation insurance, so Kerry was able to put that in process. And so, quite the, you know, that was just the beginning, but quite the ordeal. And for me at that point,
Well, they've had an interesting first night after the first surgery where they, they'd forgot, they hadn't, as it turned out, they gave me the self-medication machine and I was sitting there through the night whenever you feel pain, you press this button and I'd get a little bit of relief. You know, I've just had a surgery and my arm was in a cast and...
and it would last five minutes and I'd be in pain again and you know I keep pressing this button you're gonna press it so many times the machine would whirr and just wasn't getting any real relief through the night but you know made it through the night Kerry comes in and I kind of explained to her I was in a lot of pain and I go to her and she had a Spanish dictionary so she was trying to explain to the nurses mal mal you know bad bad
you know, pretty limited range of Spanish, unfortunately. And finally, I think we got a doctor or something and explained and they checked the machine and put the cartridge in properly. So I had no pain medication once the medication from the surgery wore off. So was my first night in, you know, post first surgery in Columbia. After that, I was pretty dosed up on medication. So.
Curt Cronin (21:25)
It stills a great deal of confidence when you can't install
the cartridge in the machine.
Keiron McCammon (21:30)
Yeah, yeah, was
like, really, you're kidding me. It's quite funny in hindsight to talk about. But again, it is as I always, it keeps reminding me just the power of the kind of mind, body, spirit through that time. the ability to get through that night with or without pain medication, it's just that that body is an amazing thing.
you know the mind is an amazing thing so yeah so that that was you know the the beginning out of a couple of other surgeries before we finally got medivac out and then a lot more surgeries after that once we got Miami and you know through that process you know understood the prognosis at least for my hand and you know I made the decision to amputate probably
I'll say eight plus surgeries at that point, hyperbaric oxygen therapy twice a day, at least five days a week. You know, eight full general surgeries. I think we were in... β
ICU when we first arrived for the first three, four days, think, with Kerry sleeping in the ICU. So was kind of, it was, you know, quite the process of going through and they tried as hard as they could for sure to save my...
hand and give it enough time, take away all the dead tissue and give it enough time to see what was viable. through that journey, decided to let go of my hand so I could move on with life.
Curt Cronin (23:15)
And what was that journey like if you can share it Keiron because in the SEALs we got to prepare for months for a deployment in sports, when you and I were training for triathlon together, you get regimented workout. This is one where you're in a trial that you had.
no expectation for, no readiness for, you know, that model of you're fully in the pre-tragic, know, everything that you've manifested to life in general, like has worked out, all of a sudden you're in the tragic. And clearly now you're in the post-tragic. One of the most difficult parts of that journey is we don't get to know what we'll need when we get to the tragic and who is required to help us pull us out. I mean, I know my deepest.
tragedy was when you know extortion 17 got shut down today's Memorial Day so it's a day of celebrating remembrance of all those we've lost and so I Know it without my wife and my mentor I likely would not have come back from that, you know post-traumatic stress disorder You know remember my mentor told me hey Kurt You can't save anybody else's life by destroying your own and he said I believe in post-traumatic growth disorder
That was a bit of my journey, but to me, the essence of the impossible to inevitable is getting through a tragic experience that you never expected, anticipated, wanted, or would have had in your worst nightmare. how do you, how did you, you know, one sentence said, and I made the decision to let my arm go. my, my sense is there's so much more in that. And that's part of the strength that of character you have now. You share what that process was like for you.
Keiron McCammon (25:01)
Yeah, mean, you know, in that, going back to that time, I mean, to be where I am now or even where I was, you know, as I was recovering, felt pretty impossible that I could get, you know, that life normalcy would return to life. Should we say that, you know, that
that I would get back to some semblance of a normal life and obviously, know, I don't think I have a particularly normal life, but you know, the life that I now have, was, it was just absolutely impossible to imagine back then. I had no reference points other than to dear friends of mine from university days and diving buddies who were,
profoundly deaf, I really not experienced anyone with any kind of disability. So I had no reference point to know as I faced the decision of, you know, should I amputate? Should I not? What would life be like? As we were going, you know, once we got medevaced out of Columbia and we were in Mercy Hospital, I had some amazing physicians and doctors and care. Absolutely, you know, just awakening for me at that time of...
how much, above and beyond their duty of care, as professionals in the medical field, they went above and beyond for both myself and my wife. So that process was a lot of other people and a lot of things coming together, but in the moment, I felt absolutely, I think, impossible.
to imagine what life was going to be like. No reference points to think about what life would be like based on the decision that, you know, at some point we may have to make. And so I think what I learned through that process and very blessed to have the mindset and I would say some...
training to some degree from books that I'd read and things that I'd listened to to give me at least the mental fortitude to kind of come back and say, well, I've got to stay in the here and now. If I look at the past, it's kind of that that is the tragic, guess, in a way, because it's all the, know, woe is me, why me, if only type of dwelling.
So I purposefully didn't want and didn't spend time looking in the past, but I likewise couldn't really look to the future because that was filled with maximal uncertainty of, know, I've got a startup that I am a co-founder of that, you know, we just launched and I should be back with my partners. What's going to happen?
How long am I going to be here? When am I going to get back? In what condition am I going to get? What would life be like? So to look to the future was just maximal uncertainty. And I guess in some ways, fear, you know, probably if I think about it now, of, you know, to look that far ahead of just not knowing. And so I just had to focus on, at least for me,
where I was right now, day by day. And I think that was very much just kind of chunked down the recovery. So I stayed, you know, here, alive, next surgery, recovery, next surgery, kind of in the routine of the moment and away from what's happened and worrying about what might be.
And that was the case for, you know, would say weeks if not months getting through the process. You know, what could I do other than let other people take care of me, which is not something that I had ever let happen other than, you know, when I was born and obviously looked after by my parents. It was independent from a pretty early age and valued that independence. So for the first time was back in that, you know, as an adult back in the stage of just having to let others take care of me.
trusting in others to take care of me and just focusing on you know what I could do in that moment. And I went through as I reflect back on it I kind of and again didn't have this at the time this this is something I pieced together afterwards just the process that I went through and I remember this was
probably after the first surgery or maybe even before the first surgery in Columbia, or a little bit of a blur. But I very quickly accepted what has happened and just there was no going back. There was no feeling sorry for myself or blaming others for what had happened or...
power lines for being there, or my guide for having Damme, you know, broken his foot in a previous week's, you know, that he couldn't be flying with me and should have been with me at the time. And if that had been the case, all of those stories that I could have created in that moment. But I just remembered kind of accepting what was. This happened. Whatever happens now going forward, I guess, is a blessing to some degree, but it's just...
It's happened, can't undo it. And then more importantly, took responsibility because as a pilot, I was the one that took off and chose to take off that morning. I was the one that put myself in that situation, that decided, even though my buddy had landed, decided to fly on, that made the decisions that put me in that place. despite...
know, other circumstances, should we say, that all contributed to the stacking effect. At the end of the day, I took responsibility or accountability. β
for what happened, the decisions that I made that at least put me in that place. Yes, it was an unfortunate accident, but I didn't feel helpless about it, if you like. I just said, okay, this has happened. I'm not gonna blame anyone else. This is my decisions. And a little funny anecdote.
Normally every time I would fly I would carry who was with me just before I took off with the exchanger, of goodbye kiss.
And that particular morning, there was some dust or something got into her camera. So she went back to the truck and I was waiting. And just as she was at the truck, the wind picked up and it was okay. So I launched and then Kerry was kind of running back from the car to come take pictures. And I remember seeing and thinking, β you know, didn't exchange our goodbye, you know, our usual kind of farewell kiss and thinking, just my luck to go kill myself today.
Curt Cronin (32:37)
you
Keiron McCammon (32:38)
low and behold it didn't quite go that far but just one of those funny little things that goes, that just popped through my mind. Precious, who knows what it was at that moment. But in the hospital, despite I think Kerry had a much harder time with it, I was, just, hey this has happened.
It's my response, you know, I'm accountable, I'm responsible for what has happened. I'm not going to blame anyone else. I'm not going to blame my guide. I'm not going to blame, you know, the world or whatever it is. Move on, know, time just to process this.
and move forward with it. And then the next thing that happened for me relatively quickly, which I think is step two, so it's like kind of accept what is and then forgive myself because
Once you could argue, you would call it kind of radical responsibility or accountability, that there was no one else to blame other than myself. That didn't mean I was going go beat myself up and say, you idiot, why did you do that? That's not productive either. So neither did I blame others. I forgave myself.
I don't know if it was conscious at the time. I forgave my guide. Again, I just didn't hold any energy of it's my fault or it's someone else's fault. was just, this has happened. Forgive myself, be grateful for...
still being alive, to have survived. I think I understood then quite what I had survived and how remarkable, I guess it really was, to have survived kind of shorting across power lines. But I was just absolutely kind of equanimity about it's happened.
there is no one to blame, not even myself, certainly not others. Okay, from this point, I was able to kind of process, you know, the time in Columbia, getting medevac to Miami, everything that I was going through. And so by the time it came where the doctors kind of presented the prognosis saying, well, we're not sure, you know, what's going to happen here with your hand.
and it was probably four to six weeks in at that point. was getting pretty, what I thought I was getting was pretty tired from the every other day going in for surgery in between obviously all these hyperbaric oxygen therapy twice a day.
deep breedments where they're of stripping away the dead tissue in, know, whilst you're still in the hospital bed under local anesthetic. So it was just kind of, it felt like I was just getting very physically drained. Obviously your dozed up on, I was a delotted at the time, which is like 10 times stronger than morphine. So it was, you know, pretty spaced out and...
Kerry had been fighting so hard to save my hand. She's an energy worker. She'd brought in someone, like alternative β medicine, also kind of do some energy work on my hand. So she was working really hard to save my hand. No one quite knew how the hand was. As far as they could, they couldn't really detect any blood flow to the hands. They weren't even sure how it was still not necrotic, if you like. It was still somewhat alive.
But when faced with the decision, ultimately my decision or our decision of whether I should amputate or not, just, it's kind of, this is leading up kind of the third step in a way, but it was amazingly powerful how...
sometimes what you would think of as the hardest decision in your life, in my case, chopping off, know, part of, choosing to have part of my body chopped off, if you like, amputating my hand. You know, how do you, you know, I didn't, how would you ever be equipped to make that type of decision? It wasn't something that happened to me where, you know, I had an accident, I woke up and, you know, like a motorcycle accident and, you know, the decision had been made for me. It was a decision that I got to make.
to choose my path forward. And it seems like the hardest decision to keep, do you keep fighting for that? Why would you not keep fighting for your hand? Or do you choose to amputate? When I got clear on what I felt was really important in my life at that stage, did I want to spend the next nine months in hospital with an uncertain future or prognosis? Maybe they could say that, maybe they couldn't, maybe it would just be this child kind of clawed hand.
wasn't very functional, or did I want to get back to life? And my draw for me was I wanted to get back to life. Even without a hand, I wanted to get back to life quicker. I wanted to get out of hostel. I wanted to get back home. I wanted to get back to my startup. I wanted to get back to life again. I got clear on what was important. And the decision to amputate for me was simple.
It was very clear in my mind when I, and you know, obviously talking it through with Kerry, my wife, you know, making that decision together, it felt very simple to me that the amputation was the right path. One, because I told myself a story, I think, which was one more surgery, I'll be done, awesome, you know, I'll start to heal and we can get back to our lives and get out of hospital.
didn't quite pan out that way but you know that was a good story at the time. I remember laying outside this particular surgery for the amputation outside the operating room. Kelly was standing beside me holding my hand and at least this is the way I remember it. She remembers it a little bit differently but she kind of looked to me in the eye and said that you sure you want to do this because there's no going back.
And in my mind I'm thinking, no, Sherlock, yep, they're going to amputate. There's no going back from that one. But what came to me in that moment was really, and what stayed with me post the amputation all the way through even to this day was I kind of looked at it said, it's OK to let it go. And it was that act of
I wasn't losing my hand, I was choosing to let go of something that had no longer served me. It had served me very well for 35 plus years of my life, but I was letting go of something that if I held onto could potentially kill me at that point, either through blood poisoning, necrosis.
you know, there were very real risks of trying to hold onto the hand and save it. And so that has, you know, those three steps have become, you know, constant theme in my life in a way, it become a metaphor for how do you get through something that like in your, you know, as you say, in this case seems pretty damn impossible. How could you even make that decision for yourself? But it was accepting what is, forgiving myself and others and kind of...
being grateful that I was still alive at that point, and then choosing to let go of something that no longer served me. And that, a long story, a long road to recovery afterwards, but that was really, I think, what set me up to be able to move forward in life, and not just, as I like to say, not just survive.
But you know, thrive through adversity is my kind of tagline in a way. You know, I just experienced it in, obviously this is a very physical manifestation, you know, with a lot of emotion attached to it. But you know, really learning to come out the other side in β a stronger, better person. Don't get me wrong, I would take a hand back any day of the week, but I also wouldn't give up who I am now.
compared to who I was prior to the accident. that was, you know, again, long story thereafter and took way longer. It was much quicker for me to recover physically and emotionally.
after the accident and get back to my startup and get back to life than it was to repair some of the damage that I'd brought on my relationship with Kerry that really came to a head in that moment. And you know, the decade of coming back from that and going through many other ups and downs in life. But I've always come back to the accept, forgive, let go.
Curt Cronin (42:03)
And you've portions of that story with me before, but always so powerful and really present to me this morning, the map you're giving us to get through the tragic, right? The map through the unmappable. And I met Keiron, for everyone listening, I met him. We were both at a conference. I remember sitting down, happened to be directly opposite of him at this conference and thinking.
you know, hearing his story as a serial entrepreneur, coder, had just exited Kabuto at this time and thinking like, what am I doing here? Getting to sit next to someone. And he has this β amazing Zen Buddhist presence. I don't think I've...
ever really seen Karen mad in a 16 year relationship. So like in a amazing ability, everything he's talking about now is I've experienced it across almost every domain in life. And so I assumed you were always like that. And then as you told this story, β that was part of your growth. was part of your process of of living gracefully in the post tragic. I love your clarity for you of hey, I just accepted it.
for someone who's having trouble accepting whatever it is and your story is so powerful because it is a physical embodied, you know, while we're here in 3D, hey, I had to make a choice to let go of my hand. What perspective or what thoughts would you give someone struggling to accept?
Keiron McCammon (43:30)
Hmm. I mean, it's the first step. I think without acceptance, you can't get to forgiveness. You certainly can't get to letting go of whatever is holding you back. And you certainly don't get to be able to move on and thrive through whatever that adversity or that tragedy is.
So it's not easy by any means. It's simple but not simplistic as they say. I think if I go back to that time of accepting...
For me at that stage, it was not a struggle. I did not struggle to accept. I have struggled in other stages of life to accept other challenges or losses or whatever it may be. I was just very, again, none of this.
All of this unpacking I've been able to do after the fact in the moment I don't recall thinking about it in anything like this. I just...
I think part of choosing to do a risk sport maybe, which is my situation, that's not going to be everyone's situation. Some people's may be the loss of a loved one, the loss of a relationship, the loss of a job, the loss of financial security. β I can honestly say in mind that as a pilot, as someone choosing to do a risk sport and put myself potentially in harm's way,
for something that I enjoyed greatly to do, flying as free as a bird, it came very easy for me to accept that my choices had led to that sequence of events. So I don't know if I can unpack how you accept other than you, you know.
just accepting what is, the first stage. What is, even if it's looking at the world and thinking that everything is β screwed up and what on earth do we do about it, whether it's climate change or whatever, you know, you may look at, I think.
It's the old, you know, and again, I didn't know any of this at the time, but obviously reading and other parts of my life journey, particularly following more of kind of a Zen and meditative path, everything is perfect, just as it is, for it could be no other way. So whatever it is, wherever you are in the life, accepting what is, because at this point in time, there could be no other way.
And I also think the intuitive, you know, the mindset I was blessed with at that moment was not just that I accepted what is, but I also stayed away from dwelling on the past or worrying about the future. When you're in it, when you're, you know, processing, for me,
Whatever happened, it was going to take time for me to just let alone emotionally recover, but just physically recover. I think if you can accept what has happened and also give yourself the space to just be in it, in that moment for whatever period of time that it takes to stay with it and not...
It's not that I was there all the time, but stay away from looking at what has happened, the sequence of events, or worrying too much about the future, until you have the mental, you've built the mental fortitude to be able to look at what happened and unpack it, to be able to look forward and see a compelling future.
I knew, this is many months after we were back, it took us, I think, two and a three months to get back to the San Francisco Bay Area where we lived, for me to finally get back to my startup and with my partners who were so gracious.
holding the space for me in the company and my role, know, an early stage startup is not when you want to lose one of the founders for the better part of three months and maybe not even know if they're coming back. It would have been very easy for them to say, you know, the investors, certainly there was some pressure to put, you know, to find my replacement, if you like. I'll see that their money's at risk. I'd put their investment at risk. But I remember I did not drink alcohol.
because I knew that I was not emotionally equipped to be able to. And I remember having a small glass of wine at home and it was the first time that I cried from where I was post-accident.
probably three, four, five months down. And I knew that I still was not strong enough at that point. So I can't remember exactly how long many, many months before I felt I was emotionally balanced to be able to kind of then get back to, okay, now I can drink again and not be affected by obviously the nature of the alcohol.
But it was a very visceral reminder of, okay, not yet, not ready yet. So hardest thing as an entrepreneur is patience, I've learned. But the hardest thing through that process was you just have to be patient with yourself and give yourself the time and the space.
Curt Cronin (49:28)
And I love the pub.
I love a couple of the key things you brought up were one, your ability to stay in the present, you know, the past filled with regret, the future and in especially in an uncertain environment, you could run your mind can run thousands of scenarios that are completely overwhelming. So your ability to do stay in a state of grace, which you both talked is such a crucial aspect you were able to get into. And I love
mean, so many things were exploding for me as you were talking. Most all the studies say that most humans will do more to avoid loss than to get to earn a gain. And so it'd be so easy to focus on here's what I've lost. And what I've always heard you talk about is as you were so clear what you had to gain, like what you had to gain was your life back, what you had to gain and that ability to get into a state of grace no matter what the circumstance and be grateful.
I think is one of your superpowers that allowed you to navigate that and and as a coder I loved how you took I love as I always tell people you're my favorite spiritual technologist because Maybe this is unconscious, but instead of when when you're coding a problem I can't code but mine, know You break it down and what's the small chunks I need to be able to flow through and so it sounds like in life you do the same thing Hey spiritually, I can't integrate this whole process. I'm going to give myself the grace of not requiring myself to try and
do this overwhelming process that might put me into a tailspin, but instead I'm going to slowly and patiently, as you always told me, trust the process, expand as I'm capable, which what an unbelievable act of grace for yourself.
Keiron McCammon (51:25)
Yeah, think, as I say, be gentle with yourself. Certainly through this process, I learned to be kind to myself. There was a lot of unpacking that happened.
you know, through the process and certainly in the journey thereafter where I could, you know, look at my life back then and selfish is the right word, but, you know, maybe self-centered in terms of I did the things I want, you know, I was married, we'd moved over from the UK to the US.
Kerry, we were engaged at the time, but not married. She kind of followed me across. But I continued to do the things that I wanted to do, whether it was adventure sports, scuba diving, snowboarding, paragliding.
startup, know tech startups, I left a very secure job because I was feeling like I wasn't growing and I want to do something, didn't know what it was and that's how I ended up getting into doing a know a tech startup in the early days of the web 2.0. Facebook wasn't even out of the dorm room you know. I don't know if we know we really called it web 2.0 back then, 2004-2005 time frame and yeah I mean it was just a
you know, the person who I became through that process where I, as I said, I think I, you know, the duty of care that the hospital staff in Mercy to look after both myself and Kerry to help her find somewhere to stay. Obviously we were gonna be there for many months. She couldn't sleep in the ICU every night.
to my surgeon would come in after his last, my hand surgeon would come in after his last surgery at midnight or one o'clock and come in to check on me and then drive my wife back to her long stay. And it's just, this is, they don't know who we are. You know, even now to think back. β
on the doctors that we had and the care that they showed, not just for me, but for Kerry to be away. Our family were back in the UK. None of our friends, all of our friends were obviously back in the Bay Area. But I also woke up to...
the impact that my actions in the world had on others. I had never considered the consequences, if you like, or the impact that my actions, my choices in life to do what I wanted to do, and if it was good for me, I was good with it type of thing. And it's not, I was a complete...
asshole or anything, but it's just I was very much at that stage of my life in kind of driven to do the things that I really enjoyed doing either as a technologist in my career or certainly in adventure sports. And then seeing the consequences of what I was now putting Carrie through. My business partners, know, my the investors who invested in us.
in this startup, you know, a year earlier and that I was now putting in jeopardy. You know, my mom who had to fly across from Spain, my brother, my dear friend who took a week off work to fly in from the Bay Area to, you know, spend time and at least provide, carry some support and company. I was just surrounded by just a whole, you know, a moment of just awareness that there is more
in the world if you like than just me and what I wanted to do and that was also the beginning of part of the journey of waking up to and you know there's a you know a much bigger part of the journey post accident of just kind of becoming a what I hope
for sure is a better person, a better husband, a better friend, a better business partner, you know, just someone who, hey, I still enjoy my adventure sports and it took me a good few years to process this part of it. But I think it, you know, it did become, it was an accident that put me,
on a better path in life and if I look back now you know obviously I was paragliding a fair bit flying all around the Bay Area you know it had a
mere brush with power lines when I was flying in Brazil. I saw them at the last minute, was able to turn and fortunately landed on this β fairly heavy landing but landed without any injury on this small hole in this little island on a river so I had to find a way to get across the river. I like, okay. It's a little tap by the universe as I like to call it and... β
Then I was doing a friendly paragliding competition in the Bay Area and everyone else was flying around the ridge. I decided to go straight across. Typically once you get lower than the ridge you're just kind of taken off from, you can get a lot of air turbulence. So ended up my paraglider completely collapsed in front of me, recovered. I was like, okay, great. Carried on flying, didn't change course. My whole canopy collapsed.
dived in front, twisted, I ended up having to throw my reserve and everything was fine, came down safely, had to get my paraglider out of that tree. So was like, you know, that was knock number two, it a harder tap. I think the universe was trying to just say, are you sure you're doing the right thing here, I guess. Again, that's me making up stories after the fact.
The third one was Columbia, obviously, and colliding with power lines. So I guess if you don't listen to the gentle nudges the universe is trying to give you, they just get louder or harder. So it took a pretty hard one, I think, to wake me up to where I was and the trajectory that I was on. I'm β a slow learner. What could I say?
Curt Cronin (58:00)
I've always known you to be incredibly resilient.
Well,
but I want to make sure we don't miss the third, which is let go. In your model, I would say, I've always experienced your unbelievable lack of attachment. A lot of my work now is can I be more committed, less attached in the SEALs every operation? No plan survives first contact. so, you know.
I can feel vibration when I'm attached to the plan and then there's a moment where there's enough chaos where now I'm great and unattachment for me. It's how can I shorten that β friction period where I'm still trying to hold to the original plan versus switch over. Anything you have on and what you do to, I think you've given most of the models of stay in the present, β have grace for yourself, don't hold judgment.
But anything else on how do you remain committed and attached? Because obviously like so many successes as a serial entrepreneur, you know, in life across all the main domains, multiple time Ironman triathlete, how many, many Ironmans, full Ironmans? Five. And that includes Kona, like the, the, β the preeminent Ironman. So, so many different contexts that you've done the impossible. β
Keiron McCammon (59:16)
Mmm, five now.
The mecca.
Curt Cronin (59:30)
the let go piece for me is often the most difficult. So I would love any of your context on how do you let go so easily. And by easy, you just said, it takes time, but any other perspective on how you do that.
Keiron McCammon (59:53)
Good question. It's in this case, you know, for choosing to let go of my hand and you know that seems like the hardest decision but it actually when I got clear on the outcome what was important it was the easiest decision.
And the fact that I had framed it just intuitively, as I said, outside of the emergency room, the operating theater rather, of, you know, it's okay to let it go, was the, you know, the, gave me the fortitude, I think, through, you know, all the steps of the journey and meeting friends and everything else. I was never...
I never looked at it like I had lost something and therefore I, you know, and the way I frame it is if I framed it as I lost my hand and that's certainly, you know, vocabulary, you're to use that terminology but I always look at it as hey, I let go of something that no longer served me. But if I looked at it as I'd lost something, I'd be forever looking for it. I'd be ever looking behind for hey, I lost my hand or I lost this or I lost that relationship or I lost that.
you know, that marriage or that loved one or whatever it is versus, you know, getting to the point where, you know, I can choose to let go of something very dear to me as a body part, but let go of something that just moving forward was no longer going to serve me. It could be in its, you know, in different stages where I've used this model. It could be I'm letting go of a relationship, a friend.
a friendship that is no longer serving me, a behavior that's no longer serving me, a belief system that's no longer serving me, or even β angst or...
I don't know if I would ever say I've hated someone. That's not kind of where I naturally go to, you know, holding on to a negative emotion about someone else. You know, the perception that they've done something to you or have done something to me. Again, it's accepting what is, it's happened. Taking accountability, responsibility.
forgiving myself and that other person which is not an easy thing to do. I would say in other stages of life that's a hard thing to sometimes be able to forgive either sometimes myself or forgive others.
But then that third stage of letting go of whatever energetically or otherwise that I'm holding onto, that relationship maybe I'm holding onto, or that attachment to a certain possession or a job or an identity, certainly being one of my cases, know, holding onto a particular identity and figuring out how that I can let that go.
so that I'm never feeling like I've lost something. Letting go of something so I can move on is very different from feeling like I've lost it. Now, how do you let go? I think it's been different in every, you know, in each situation I've gone through it. Sometimes it has taken me...
years to let go of something, you particularly in a business relationship or a personal relationship where I'm holding on to. But I also, you we've talked, you know, the idea that, hey, at the end of the day, if I'm holding on to a judgment of someone,
Well, whatever I'm seeing in someone else is just a reflection of what I have yet to accept in myself. So in many ways, know, letting go is just being able to unpack and process and say, okay, what is it that I'm not seeing in myself? What is it I'm not accepting in myself? And often that is a way that energetically I, you know, I can let things go. But there's usually a period where I can kind of, huh, yeah, I've managed to...
just put that weight down, you know, take that rucksack of lead off and just put it on the ground and I can just breathe again, I can just feel taller again and I can now kind of move forward from that place. Again, none of this is necessarily easy, you know, accept, forgive, let go, seems so simple but far from simplistic.
I wish I could, think everyone's in a unique place, but I think if you, if.
If you can at least understand that you're not going to be able to let go if you haven't accepted and forgiven yourself and others. You can't forgive yourself and others. haven't accepted what has happened and just the reality of what is. You can't jump to number three. You certainly can't jump to number four and thrive through adversity and move on if you haven't been through the first three. So like it or not, you've got at least for me, I'm not saying it's going to work in every single situation in life, but it's certainly been
something that I've been able to use many times.
Curt Cronin (1:05:17)
we haven't gotten
to your greatest superpower yet of living a life of unreasonable joy. And so what keeps flashing for me today is your sharing is it would be very easy to remain attached to here's what I've lost because that's concrete. You have concrete evidence. Hey, here's what I've lost. And so to live there is to always, to your point, be.
lacking and in judgment and in resentment and then it'd be easy because that's the easiest thing that's right in front of you to hold on to or you can lean into an unknown future of unreasonable joy and to me like that's that is the the radiance you bring to every room is bringing that unreasonable joy but like i've learned that from you tell us tell us how you get to this state of unreasonable joy the easy path
Keiron McCammon (1:06:03)
You
If I knew that I would live there all the time. β When I say unreasonable joy, just to clarify, I'm not saying it's just joy without reason. I'm not saying that it's a level of joy that no one in the world has ever experienced.
that it's not, yeah, it's not a signal, it's not like it's a level, it's never just unreasonable joy, joy without reason, just joyful without any external stimulus is, I don't live there, I have moments, I touch on it at times, I've certainly touched on it on various journeys and experiences both through meditation and breath work and others. β So I have experienced it to know it as a reference point.
Curt Cronin (1:06:27)
It's not a significance thing, yes.
Keiron McCammon (1:06:56)
and it is something that, you know, and again aspiring to it is the wrong thing because it's a state of being. It is a, I think it is our natural state. I think our align with the Dalai Lama, know, the laughing Buddha. It is, it's just kids are just so, most of the time, just so joyful until the weight of the world is put upon them. So I think it's just trying to get back to
You know, and remember, it's a remembering that this is our natural state and it's, you know, the moments I touch on it is when you're just in the supermarket or walking down the road or, you know, β out looking at the trees or whatever it may be or just seeing other people. And for no other reason, I often get this. β
bizarrely enough sitting on a plane on on flights I will often I can often something you know tap into just a level of just pure like how amazing is this how amazing is this life how amazing these beautiful human beings around me or the scenery that I have and it's just this this upwelling of it wasn't there one moment ago and there's nothing that I consciously thought or someone
gave to me or did for me is just a moment where it is an upwelling of wow just pure joy for no reason and you can certainly feel and I have felt and do feel joy for reasons snowboarding or scuba diving think you know things there's nothing wrong with that joy either it's just how can I live more
in that state is certainly something to meditate on for sure. you know, as I say, there's no other way to get there. There is no, it's not outside of us. It's just, it's there. It's just a remembering, I think, and just remembering it more often.
Curt Cronin (1:09:11)
And end.
Many of you that know us will know this, but we're part of an accountability group we call the Honey Badgers, which has really been a 15 year accountability group. And there's at least seven or eight transitions in my life I wouldn't have made without that group. And so you touched on it with Carrie and you brilliantly talked about this model for how you individually get into that state, but there's always interactivity. And as you talked about the journey from β
My kids going from dependent dependence to independence. And as you talked about the arc of your story, I also heard you move into a interdependence, both both with Carrie and with others. And I would love to get I know for myself when I first went into the tragic. And I've been my wife and my mentor, I likely would not have come out of that. And so part of the miracle of you can't bootstrap yourself and you have to trust that.
The right people will show up when the journey begins. Any insights on that interdependence? How that increased with Carrie and you talked about the caregivers and all the humans that showed up for you that many of didn't even know. The gentleman that picked you up from off the road. Like all of the interdependence that unfolded for you where we really have that.
that sense of separation. don't think it's possible to have that unreasonable joy when we're in judgment and driving separation from others instead of being interconnected by any of your insights or perspective there.
Keiron McCammon (1:10:48)
I think that's way to look at it. is, you know, I'd lived prior accident most of my time in that state of independence and egoically very tied up with the idea of being independent. think generationally we are, know, Gen X, a very independent... β
individualistic generation to some degree. Having the accident and starting to see the impact of my actions on others and how others show up and I don't think it's an exaggeration to say I don't know if I would have survived.
without Kerry being with me and being present on that trip and the care she gave me despite what you know but the story she did she shared with me many many years later as I was starting to write this down and β it was
Curt Cronin (1:11:55)
when you are more
ready for it as she waited.
Keiron McCammon (1:11:58)
Yeah,
yeah, exactly. don't think I could have processed it necessarily back then. β She claims, I think she told me back then and I'm thinking, well, yeah, obviously if you did, I completely blanked it out.
Curt Cronin (1:12:09)
You're a brilliance
of you blocked out that what you couldn't accept?
Keiron McCammon (1:12:12)
I like, yeah, yeah, not hearing that. But yeah, I mean that morning on that particular trip, she had finally the last straw and had decided that when we got back that she wanted to separate and leave me. And obviously that, you know, that very day I had my accident. So I didn't know any of that at the time. Something she shared much, much more late, much later as we were repairing our relationship and getting back to a state.
of interdependence in our relationship. But it was thrust on me. I I was forced to be in a state of dependence on others that was a very unusual place for me to be. Dependence, very much dependent on Kerry to be my advocate through all of the surgeries, all of the hospitalization, the care of others.
the my co-founders Manish and Jayth and to keep the company going. Fortunately we had enough of a team there to keep my position and role open. Very much grateful for Manish who was my partner as CEO of the company. You know, ended up dialing into one of the board meetings from my hospital bed.
in Mercy Hospital, I think it was, with Kerry kind of holding the computer there. You know, just say, hey, I'm still alive, still here, coming back. But, you know, that began a journey that, you know, expanded me mentally, emotionally, spiritually, to realize that we are all...
interconnected and you know the journey that again that was a lot happened over the next decade or so both in our relationship as well as emotionally in life start-up life you know
learning to meditate and get into more of a spiritual practice which ultimately, you know, really was, think, my, my life. mean, getting through my accident was nothing compared to the existential crisis I went through β many, a few years later that I had to figure out how I got myself out of. But it was coming back and just realizing that, I mean it...
And where we are now and where I am now, obviously with our Honey Badger group, is just being in and holding space in interdependence. it's the old kind of to me, things happen to me, I'm a victim, by me, individualistic, everything happens because I make it happen, through me.
the ability for me to elevate myself to the point where things are happening not because I'm doing it, but I'm just a channel for things to happen and seeing other people, whether it's in a professional setting and my teams, not just me doing things and being in the startup, but my teams doing things and being successful through their success. And then ultimately getting to that.
just by me state, which I think is a state of, which again I can touch at times through meditation, breath work and others of just as me. Yeah, as me. Yeah, exactly. It's just as me. Sorry. It's just the, yeah. And I think it's just being.
Curt Cronin (1:15:45)
Asmi. People may want to hear it as Bimee, but it's Asmi.
Keiron McCammon (1:15:57)
you know, realizing that I'm not overly religious from that standpoint, more probably more non-theistic, but just the sense that we're all connected at a some kind of deep level. And I think that's the ultimate probably state of interdependence, I guess, where you can get to that state of oneness as...
as it's called where you just realize that all of consciousness is just one. I would never want to give up who I am now, the journey that I've gone through as much as I would love to get another hand. I think it's a temporary condition. They're going to now have to grow me a new hand at some point or I'm to truly a Luke Skywalker bionic hand. I would say it's a decade away.
Curt Cronin (1:16:46)
figure you'll work that out. Yeah.
Keiron McCammon (1:16:49)
two decades in now. It's still a decade away. I'll get it at some point.
Curt Cronin (1:16:54)
We
did such a β brilliant job laying out the individual journey and wanted to do one more click coming off of a recent Honey Badger experience, that interdependence, think, earlier on as a group, because that group is an impossible to inevitable, right? And there's many of those transitions I wouldn't have made early on. think we thought...
or at least from my perspective, we were trying to fix each other, right? The good news is in the mirror we could see, in a long relationship like that, β Kurt's about to go on a bender or Keiron's about to go off a cliff, you can start to see it. so I think.
Most recently it's been fasting as we transcended. Remember for me personally the last session we did.
I love building my decks and making sure, here's where I'm going in life and here's my projection. And it was the first time I couldn't do any deck at all. just could not present anything and realized.
the depth of the group and one of biggest transformations to me was presenting, hey, here's the thing I'm ashamed of, the story that has been the greatest lie that's held me back and how embarrassing that was and difficult that was to share with the group. in the group, it really had nothing that had to be done other than to...
hold that presence, the greatest gift we can give to someone else is like, is our time and our presence. And so it was fascinating to me the next level of interdependency in community is the awareness that if we're not separate, we can present anything. And in today's world where most people have the mask of I'm CEO, CMO, CTO, whatever that mask is. And then we wonder why we can't connect because we're wearing that mask that prevents us from actually connecting. So.
I always love any of your insights on how we've transcended that wonky journey from first going honey badger was, I'm going to force you to see a truth you're not ready to see. β And you really brought that out in the last one. If you expand them beyond the capacity, then it's actually damaging because it's beyond what they're ready for at the moment. And I think now it is much more a
We're going to allow you to be who you are. And the more vulnerable each of us get, more it allows us to heal and grow.
Keiron McCammon (1:19:31)
Yeah, mean, for a group, as we were reflecting during our recent times together, we were a group that's been together and has seen each other and has seen our patterns of behavior in a very intimate way. Obviously, we... Yes, our remarkable patterns of behavior. Obviously, you we're connecting every six weeks, we meet up every year, so...
Curt Cronin (1:19:47)
are amazing patterns of behavior.
Keiron McCammon (1:19:58)
We have extremely intimate and personal β discussions and vulnerabilities through our time together. And I think my reflection was, hey, we've seen so much, like any relationship, it would be easy and it is easy to...
going into any conversation to then come in with a judgment of, my word, Kurt's doing it again or so and you know, I don't know how many times I've told this guy, just stop hitting yourself with a hammer, it'll stop hurting and yet can we still come into each discussion, I think I borrowed kind of the Buddhist phrase of with
beginner's mind where you've got to be able to drop all of those judgments and just come in with fresh eyes and fresh ears to hear and see that person and not be caught up in the history that we've all been together. I mean it's good context but if we start just pattern matching then we can't be of service to each other. I think that was the
insight I had is, can we, given everything we now have experienced with each other, beyond our truly intimate relationships with our spouses, it is the most intimate other relationship, given all of that, can we still serve each other? And are we each still, are we each by ourselves, serveable?
Because if we can't put everything aside coming into any of our calls or meetings and see and hear each other refresh, then how can I serve you? How can I serve the group?
And given everything we know and all the discussion we had, can I come into the group as someone looking to be served? Can I be servable? Or will I just hear what someone is saying to me and say, I've heard them say that. They're just judging me because of excellence.
You've got it. We've got to be able to drop all of that So I think it was just that hey given everything we've been through 15 16 years Can we still be of service to each other? Can we still each be servable? And can we put all of that aside and still come into every conversation with a beginner's mind with with fresh eyes with fresh ears and
You know, I think that was the challenge for us coming into that last time together. And I think, you know, we come out of it stronger with that awareness. And I think that holds in any, whether it's with our spouses, you know.
reflecting on it, you know, as you do anything, as you do anything in life, it's how you do everything. So it's coming into, you know, my intimate relationship with Kerry and all the, we've been together 30 plus years now, I think, and still being able to come in and, you know.
have her, want to serve her and be servable by her coming in with fresh ears, with fresh eyes into that relationship. Yeah, it was an interesting, fun, fun and enlightening discussion. β
Curt Cronin (1:23:42)
I think it's fascinating for anyone listening, hey, I wish I would have a group like that. You know, the difficulty of maintaining that commitment, not attachment. You know, it is every single year there's kind of angst building into the annual offsite of, okay, how do we do this thing? Do I want to get that vulnerable at the next level that I didn't know it existed in front of my peers? β And so the requirement that
that commitment that's required from each of us to be able to hold that because the moment β that we don't show up, then all is lost. And so it's a fascinating interdimensional interpersonal relationship as you bring in a group of that size. β
Keiron McCammon (1:24:35)
Yeah, and one of the things came to mind, which we talked about, was the idea of giving everything we know of each other and where we may, in our own minds, of Kurt should really be here, type of thing. In my way, with everything, he should really be here, being able to meet each of us where we are in that moment.
to absolutely hold the space and the desire for them to continue, for all of us, each of us to continue to grow and expand in whatever areas are relevant. But yes, being able to come into that setting and just be able to say wherever they are in that moment, I've got to meet them there. And I can't have expectations that, you know.
They shouldn't be doing this anymore. How are they still following this pattern, for heaven's sake? It is like that's just where they are and I've got to love the journey that they're on, not the journey I think they should be on, and meet them there and then...
discover how I can serve them from that place. And obviously, you know, that place is gonna change, has changed for each of us. There's always a couple of us that are on an up cycle. There's always a couple on the down cycle, which is the beauty of having a group like this is everyone's at a different stage, even energetically, you know, age gap wise, all in a different stage in careers, in life. It's a great melting pot. But I think again,
the insights I get from working in this, the, being blessed to be able to work in this group is being able to take away those insights and say, I mean, how do I meet people where they are? How can I serve them? But also realize that if I can't serve them, recognize that. If they're not servable given where they are in their life or whatever it is, then...
I may still want to serve them, but if they're not servable, then there's not a meeting at that point. And yeah, and that is where you come back. That's where the relational side of accept, forgive, let go. Accept where they are or where you are and forgive yourself and others and them and be able to let go and know that if it was meant to be, it kind of comes back.
Curt Cronin (1:26:52)
Except forgive let go.
Well, I'm so excited with the unfolding of first the epic interpersonal journey from pre-tragic to tragic to post-tragic and then kind of the interpersonal at a small group now moving into future. My guess is I know where this will go. What's impossible for you now that you're making it evident? What's the current thing that if someone listening could say, can plug into Keiron to help support that mission?
Keiron McCammon (1:27:37)
Well, I think we're still in the it feels impossible phase. Obviously, you're my dear partner in so many areas of life and the work we're doing at the Trust Foundation is kind of the phase of it just feels impossible.
And I guess using the same techniques, I just hadn't thought about it this way, but it's just a stay present in the moment, trust in the process. But yeah, mean, the work we're doing to combat the widespread breakdown of trust in society, what we call the trust apocalypse, and the journey that we're three and a half years in, I guess, for you and me from...
January 2022 sitting in that small little cafe in the hotel where I was talking to you about what the hell happened over the last decade. I had such high hopes of what we were doing when I was doing Web 2.0 and I certainly wasn't a founder of Facebook or anything but founder of a tech startup in the Web 2.0 social.
media space, was kind of more in the, as I said, the building what ended up being the precursor to what Pinterest is today in many ways, but social commerce and we were writing algorithms to figure out how we get users and get them to come back and use the technology we've been building, the website we've been building, how we get more users, so viral algorithms and attention algorithms. And we thought, as I was thinking in that time period as a
as a technologist, you know, it really felt like what we were doing collectively in the Bay Area, uniting the world. know, Facebook was not out of the dorm rooms. It was still Friendster as kind of waning, MySpace was on the uprise. Facebook was really yet to come out of the, out of the dorm room. And it felt, I think even through, you know, when we sold our company in 2008 and then through 2010,
felt like we really were uniting the world and the Arab Spring.
And I kind of got out of that, of the startup game to some degree in very iterations into the 2010s. But as I said to you, looking back, just going, we had such high hopes. What the hell happened over the last decade? Where did it go wrong? It just felt like we'd driven the world apart, that we have rising polarization break down in civil discourse. Of course, I blame Facebook at the time. It's a much deeper story than that as we learn.
I think I can't remember the exact conversation, but I kind of looked at you and said, you there must be something you can do. You know, I've got to do something about this. feel somewhat responsible, I guess.
What do we do? And that was the beginning of the journey. And I think I pulled you into the beginning of what I call the kitchen cabinet process. And you were really the anchor and remain, you know, the key partner here of the two of us then pulling in General Craig Nixon. Maybe a year later as we were understanding, we thought it was all about the information disorder crisis, break down a civil discourse. We've riffed on a few ideas. We did some deep research, you two years in and we pulled in a few other
folks through the process and then you pulled in Jordan Hall who was our other partner at the Trust Apocalypse and all of last year was really our think tank phase of just understanding the nature of this wicked problem, truly quintessential wicked problem, a problem that defies solution of the widespread breakdown of trust in society that really started back in the late 60s.
know, pre-internet, you know, not necessarily even technology driven per se, but if you've read Robert Patton's book, Bowling Alone, and his more recent book, Upswing, kind of charts the beginning of the erosion of social cohesion within communities, the breakdown of kind of trust in each other, if you like, with the changing nature of generations and technology and TV and radio and people becoming more insular. And then the breakdown of trust in our institutions with
you know, the early 70s with the Watergate, the contentious end of the Vietnam War, you know, then rolling through to the breakdown of trust and informational environment with the repeal of the fairness doctrine and the rise of the shock jocks, know, Rush Limbaugh and the kind of talking heads on radio and then obviously on video and TV and then...
News becoming a business being transformed, know, bought up, you know, Fox News suddenly became 24 hour news cycles. If it bleeds, bleeds. Suddenly we've got to engage and grab people's attention and sell advertising and news became a business. All pretty internet and then the internet comes around and then social media comes around and then, know, hyper targeted digital advertising in the late 2000s and then early 2010s, you know, which Facebook really perfected it and everyone followed and Google arguably was doing with
with keyword search, mining attention and selling it to advertisers and just seeing that transition. So we really have lost trust in each other. We've lost trust in our institutions, arguably for good reason. A lot of our post-World War II institutions are no longer trustworthy, as Jordan would point out, know, and trust in our informational environment, you know, particularly the Internet exists today. And we looked at that just said, holy cat, what do you do about it?
knowing that we did not have the answer, but we did have a methodology building on your and your lived experience during the war on terror as a Navy SEAL commander, General Nixon's lived experience of being the operating, you know, running operations for Joint Special Operation Command, working under General Stan McChrystal, who was running Joint Special Operation Command and was figuring out how to transform Joint Special Operation Command. You talked to that much.
better
as you have done from siloed, you know, special operators who were at the top of their game to being a team of teams, a network of networks, and then coming out and partnering up with General Stan McCrystal, yourself and Craig, and starting the McCrystal Group and bringing that team of teams, building networks of networks into the corporate setting. And so we're, you know, looking at that and, you know, a big realization we had through last year was, well,
if we bring the right people together, there's lots of people chipping away, it's the proverbial six blind men feeling the elephant, a lot of people chipping away but not necessarily seeing the bigger problem, if we could bring people together, the right people, get them connected at the right time and trust in the process, magic's gonna happen. And so, you know, that's our...
process that that's the methodology we're applying at the Trust Foundation. It feels pretty damn near impossible right now to even imagine that we're going to actually make a change.
But it was your presentation that I sat in back in January 2022 where your last slide that you put up was that quote from the Tao Mood that said, you may not finish the work, but neither are you excused from it. So we're here because of you. Because of that, you know, kick up the backside for me to kind of say, holy cow, you know, I don't know what I can do. And I don't know if I...
have the answer, but it was a calling that felt this is an existential crisis for our society, for certainly Western society, not just here in the US. I was like, I'm an American citizen now, originally held from the UK. our society just felt like it was breaking apart.
upstream of everything that we saw of civil discourse, information disorder, truth, the breakdown of truth was trust.
And so the mission we're on to bring together and build this catalytic community of the intelligence function at the bottom of our triangle, the people with resources, whether it's their relationships, their expertise, or their capital as angel investors, using our intelligence function to direct those resources to the right action, which is the innovators, the founders, the social entrepreneurs.
who all have ideas on how to rebuild and believe in the mission, but have ideas on how to rebuild trust in community, rebuild social cohesion, rebuild or build new institutions that are trustworthy, that are fit for this digital age.
or rebuild our internet, our information and environment so that we can truly have uniquely verifiable humans connecting to uniquely verifiable humans sharing verifiable information so we can once again know who we're, the analogy you used, around the campfire with, who we're sharing information, who we're receiving information from.
So, you know, that's our theory of change, knowing that we're not the ones necessarily to solve the problem. This is a wicked problem. It will defy solution. But we can do our part to be the stewards of this community, to bring them together under the umbrella of the Trust Foundation. And obviously working towards our inaugural convening for the Trust Foundation on the Trust apocalypse in October in partnership with
General Sam McChrystal and the work he's doing with his latest book about character Bringing all of those together. I General McChrystal has been one of our strategic advisors We're using the methodology that he really pioneered that you guys lived that you then bought into the corporate world We're now applying to this problem this quintessential wicked problem and So it feels damn near impossible right now β
Hopefully we can have a conversation and another podcast in many years and say, here's how it, of course it was inevitable. What I hold to, as you look at, how do you go from impossible to inevitable? Trust in the process, trust in the independence I have with my three partners here and with Chris Licht as well.
coming together the right people, turning up at the right time, the partnership with General Stamacristal. I don't know how this plays out. So I just have to surrender to the journey and know that if I just keep kicking the can down the road, the old analogy I got from one of my business mentors, Keith Cunningham, used to say, if I asked you to kick a can a mile down the road, you would tell me it's impossible. β
But if you just kick the can every day, you will kick it a mile down the road. And so it feels like our journey from impossible to inevitable right now is we're deep in it feels impossible, but we have a methodology. We just have to trust in the process.
and keep kicking the can and doing the small incremental steps, bringing people together, standing up an angel network so that we can look at some of the companies and the founders, evaluate them both from a impact, will they make an impact on helping restore a level of trust in our communities, our institutions or in the internet, the information environment. Are they viable businesses that we could legitimately say, hey, this is a great investment?
great,
let's channel the resources of our angel network. You we've got to do more thought leadership. Hence, you you started your podcast and we're starting to, you know, put the word out there and write our white papers and policy pieces. And obviously building the community is anchored on putting together the, ignore conference. I don't think.
three years ago plus when we sat there in that little cafe and said, there can't be something we can do about this. I had no idea what journey we were even on, let alone what the outcome might be or even what the problem was. I just knew that, you for me at that stage of my life, there was a calling to do something.
And so I just did something, the smallest thing I thought I could do, which was just...
ask you to partner with me and say, let's just kick the tires on this thing every week. Let's just jump on a call and pull a few other people in. I don't know any other way to get started than we just pull together this kitchen cabinet and we just kick the tires. And it's been a journey. It's the hardest lesson as an entrepreneur is patience. And this has taken a lot of patience β to say the least. β
Curt Cronin (1:41:07)
Well, and
even as you talk about the fascinating time bending forward and backwards through history where I met General McChrystal and General Nixon, to be clear, I was the benefactor of the process they put in place. I was the young guy. was like, of course, this is how we solve every problem and the incredible courage that they took to.
take the ego out of, you imagine what makes special operators great is the complete confidence that they are the only ones that have the answer. so, you know, and so the ability to now drive interoperability because of the crisis, the crisis was we were going to lose the war. at the time, terrorism looked like, hey, we're going to have a twin towers attack. Infinite number of times. And thankfully, we've never had another one. And then then to then.
because of that process and because I knew it was crucially important that I learned to become the best leader I did. That's how we met at that conference. We were both on a quest, like, hey, at the time I was running from scarcity, like, hey, if I'm not fast enough, someone gets injured. then moved into how do we be pulled by abundance? How do we pulled by the joy? And then the incredible story that you've shared with us of here's the methodology for getting from pre-tragic to tragic to post-tragic. β
the experience across the tiny community of six with the Badgers and then now, okay, how do you build that catalytic community where each of us can now feel seen, heard and understood and bring all of our superpowers to bear in the most dynamic environment? The most challenging thing is the language isn't even the same. The technologist doesn't speak the same language as resource person and specifically not as the J2 or the intelligence personnel that are looking.
300 years out in the future and go, hey, here's where this thing's gonna land. You're like, I know, but I'm right here. And so it's fascinating, how do you know? Get to that common context where we all don't know and we're comfortable in the not knowing.
Keiron McCammon (1:43:11)
Yeah, it's definitely the... I guess the very definition of a faith-based initiative is not knowing how... know, they're literally not knowing.
where we're even trying to get to necessarily, you know, the steps of the process are unclear, but just having the faith of we won't get there. And even if we don't get there, and again, that was the quote that you put up on screen, even if it's not mine to finish, neither am I excused from it, which means
I have a role to play as an actor. And I think the, and I'd never frame it this way, but your pre-tragic, tragic, post-tragic, it's kind of, that was almost part of our journey over the last three years of to be able to get to this point of empowered action, faith that this will lead to a better place, a better world, a better outcome.
we had to go through, and I Jordan has been, our other partner has been looking at this for probably 15 years as a kind of deep systems thinker, looking at society and civilization as a whole to be able to kind of go from the pre-tragic to the tragic, to get to the post-tragic where...
we can, again, we may not know the path, but we're in that state prepared to take action that we would not take if we were pre, you we were still stuck in the pre-tragic, woe is me, or the pre-tragic, of unaware rather, you know, no idea that there's even a problem or a tragedy, the tragedy phase of kind of woe is me, but to get the other side of that. β
Yeah, I mean, I hadn't thought about it, but I guess that's been the journey we've collectively been on. But also to get the clarity coming out into that stage to say, okay, it's all about trust. Okay, we've got Pew Research and polls from Gallup and others that kind of show the widespread breakdown of trust in society and trust in each other. Okay, great, so we've got a very clear understanding now.
Now we can move forward from that basis. yeah, I mean, it's felt very impossible through the journey. I guess maybe that's the other part of it is sometimes we look at everyone else and say, oh my God, look at how successful they are.
with all the fears, uncertainties and doubts that I have, and particularly on a journey like this, all the uncertainties I have, which I have going through me all the time, most mornings when I wake up, of how can I ever make a difference? How could I even do this? But what we don't realize is those other people are successful, not because they do not have fears, uncertainties and doubts, but because they didn't let them.
stop them. They didn't let those fears, uncertainty and doubt hold them back or stop them from taking action. And I think that's kind of the phase we're in at the moment, despite all the fear, uncertainty and doubt about how the hell we can have an impact here on the widespread breakdown of trust in society. It is, you we move forward despite not knowing, despite that uncertainty.
because we know it's too important not to.
Curt Cronin (1:47:06)
Want to me like as you said that it all comes up or of course because the fear vanishes when we're doing it in service to each other. Right. Flash me back to that moment the helicopter where look across the helicopter and give the head nod my life and yours and yours and mine and now each person became individually their best self. They wholly had their individual superpowers and the collective because they now knew that everyone had each other's back could do things that could never be done any other way. The way you could get
superhuman capabilities from very average humans, the definition of bringing, making the impossible the inevitable. And so that really is the, the essence of the mission is how do we now get to the point where we can all remove the illusion of separation and allow us to now move collectively to create a better society that is worthy of our children and grandchildren's trust.
Keiron McCammon (1:47:56)
Mmm.
I
Yeah, yeah, I think when we at the offsite, when we had the vision of preserve for our children and grandchildren communities and institutions that are worthy of their trust, I think that that still held, holds true and really grounds us in the work we're trying to do. And the interdependence of without you.
It would have just been me and I would not have had the faith or belief in myself to think I could even do something about it. just having you by my side and then the fact that you were able to pull in Craig.
who, you know, listen to the two crazies here talking about this. Again, we didn't even know it, we didn't have the language for it even back then and saying, well, if Kurt thinks this is a good idea, then I'm in type of thing and having the faith. And then obviously it's the same with Jordan and then Chris as we kind of progressed down the road. And I have, I could not.
We could not have done this without each other. I could not have had any hope of, you know, this became inevitable because of the collective, because of the independence, because when I have the moments of despair, I look and say, well, I can't let my brothers down, my partners down, and I have to keep pushing through.
and believing that we can do this even when everything says that, know, when I'm telling myself that we can't. So it's, yeah, I mean, and the catalytic community, I mean, this is the term we've...
you know, from someone else if you like. None of us really know what this catalytic community is ever going to be or what it even means to build a catalytic community, but it's just the language we now use to say this is the work we're doing. We're going to figure it out as we go. And it's only because, you know, I always work, I think, best with others and in partnership. think it's only because there is a collective that we are even where we are at this point. So.
impossible to inevitable. How do you make something that feels impossible inevitable?
Maybe it's through others.
Curt Cronin (1:50:38)
and service to others.
Keiron McCammon (1:50:54)
Hmm.
Hmph.
Curt Cronin (1:51:01)
I know if there's any parting shot after that. How do people get a hold of you to join you in the quest?
Keiron McCammon (1:51:10)
Well, they can go to... not that we have a lot of information up at the moment, hopefully over time we get more added up there, but the trust foundation dot org. They can certainly email me either info at the trust foundation dot org or kieran at the trust foundation dot org.
Obviously we're putting the bat signal up here for anyone who sees the challenges. Certainly when it comes to trust in society, we're starting to gather more people around. You can check out some of my personal story on my blog that I started shortly after my accident, onehandedblogger.com. I haven't posted a little while on there.
You can certainly read about some of my Iron Man journeys and races. You can kind of catch up on that. Otherwise, I'm not on social media, so you will... You know, I don't use my Facebook account. The work that I'm doing has made me...
so aware of the nature of these platforms and the perverse incentives that I do not wish to be part of them other than LinkedIn is the only one that I am still for personal professional reasons still connected to and still somewhat, you know, I check out periodically. But yes, you know, I've got accounts on all of these platforms, but I'm afraid if you reach out to me on those, you won't actually find me.
myself off. As I said, in a consumer economy, if you don't like what the business does and you get to vote with your feet and remove yourself from their platform and that's certainly what I've done.
Curt Cronin (1:53:00)
Thank you my brother for your friendship, partnership, brotherhood, mentorship, and all the things. are the embodiment of my favorite anonymous quote. If you think something's impossible, don't interrupt the individual that's doing it.
Keiron McCammon (1:53:13)
Well thank you and you are β my dear brother in arms and soul mate and just such a blessing to have had you in my life and likewise would not have been through a whole bunch of my transitions or even anywhere near to the work we're now doing if it was not for you. So thank you, thank you sir. Thank you for everything you are and the work you're trying to do in the world.
Love you.
Curt Cronin (1:53:46)
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