Scott Schimmel (00:00)
Welcome to the Making the Impossible Inevitable Podcast. This show is for those who see progress as a calling, not just a choice hosted by former Navy SEAL and transformational guide Curt Cronin. Each episode explores the mindset strategies and stories of extraordinary leaders who've turned the impossible into reality. These episodes are more than just conversations. They're a challenge to you to expand your capacity, shatter inner limitations and lead with unshakable purpose. Together,
let's make the impossible inevitable.
Curt Cronin (00:35)
everyone, welcome to the next episode of how do you make the impossible the inevitable? And today I'm really excited to connect you with a dear friend of mine and my president of Aiki Partners, Ann Barbour. And Ann has an unbelievable context and background that I'm really excited for you to dive into today. She's raised three boys that are out balling around the world. She has an amazing marriage and we met deep in the canyons of Utah on an exploration. so,
She has an unbelievable kinesthetic energy that if we do this right today, we will convey across like, you know, whatever audio or video frames that you're sharing with. so, and you know this as well as anyone, you helped me to create it. Tell me what's something that was impossible for you in the past that you've now made inevitable and how did you overcome it?
Ann Barbour (01:22)
Well, I've really done some soul searching on this because it feels like what was the big thing that I want to share? Because you kind of get one chance to set your story out there in a way that is meaningful and impactful and kind of trying to go to the deepest level as you and I like to do. And it's very personal and I am, but I'm happy to share this. It's far enough in the rear view mirror that my marriage is probably the thing.
that if you had been with me during periods of time, you would not believe that I'm still married. I don't believe I'm still married. And yet I am heading into, well, I'm in my 33rd year with the same person. I've teased with many people to say that it's really our third marriage. We definitely have gone through some variations. We had the pre-kid phase that was super easy and light. And then we kind of slipped into the next phase, not knowingly the kid phase. And that
created a whole host of obstacles. As you and I like to say, they eventually became opportunities, but in the moment, it was alive and dark and felt impossible. And I would really say that the crux of us moving from the moment where I discovered in 2012 that Joe was full-flown alcoholic addict, and he'd been a closet addict. And at that point,
because he was hiding it, I had just thought I had misread every signal in marrying this guy that I thought was gonna be my partner and my co-creator. so I guess, so the point is 2012, the point is he's walked out of rehab and as we called it, 30 days of camp knock it off, we try to make some things lighter occasionally. It works, most people like that combination of that. But my marriage was,
over. I couldn't see a way forward, but I knew one thing. And I knew that had three small boys. We had three small boys. He corrects me all the time, so I'm to be very careful with that one as well. And we can go forward to that, but what brought us to that was me trying to fix and save him. And I say this because I have a lot of people who are struggling with alcohol and addiction right now in my life. And you can't tell someone until they're ready.
And you can't, when someone thinks they want help, that they are really stuck in process. And so it was 15 years of a really sliding bad marriage. Like most people, my friends were like, was bad marriage six months, I had two years. And I'm here to say we would agree that we were like the war of the roses if you're old enough to remember that movie, where they're like swinging on the chandelier and they hated each other. And I believed we did. I believed that we were, but we were just surviving and going along because
we chose the route of staying for the sake of the kids. But in 2012, I can tell you, I was done and there was absolutely nothing anyone could have said to me that would have, I I fantasize things happening so that I didn't have to deal with it anymore, because I had no idea how to get out. So I think that's as clear as it can be.
Curt Cronin (04:36)
So in your
typical superpower, you drop deep immediately. So what everyone can understand, give us the backstory to how what had to be in the first marriage, know, bliss, right? Like this what we get married to start with. So can you give us a little context of when you met, when it was bliss and then when you said 15 years, it was not working, like kind of how that transition occurred? Because to me, there's probably some...
Ann Barbour (05:03)
Yeah.
Curt Cronin (05:04)
unbelievable insights in, here's where we started, you here's the romantic phase. And then what were some of the signals that you saw along the way that then led you ultimately to conclude, hey, this could be impossible.
Ann Barbour (05:17)
Right. Well, we met in college, but we had the blessing of being friends first. So we enjoyed a three, almost four year friendship before we started dating. We dated once I got out of school and I was a couple of years younger. If you asked my mom, she said she always saw it. He will deny it forever. But we were kind of like these great friends and we were friends. We knew each other's who had dated and everything like that. And so when we...
eventually kind of tested like, there more here? It was an immediate, almost, I mean, I'll use the word karmic, but like, oh, this is the guy I'm gonna marry. Like it was like, it was in a moment. I mean, it was, it actually was a kiss. And I was like, oh, not only do I trust him because he's this incredible friend, but I'm also, you know, attracted to him. And just everything about him seemed to be right. We were young. were, when we got married, we were 24 and 26.
And, and I thought I was the wisest person in the room and no one would have ever told me that age had anything to do with it. my ego was lit up. thought I had won the lottery and, he liked me because I was the perfect guy's girl, right? Like I wasn't too girly. I had only brothers. in hindsight, we have only sons. We love, talk about this, my being surrounded by the masculine and being able to kind of play in that field without it being.
Curt Cronin (06:35)
He first saw that correctly, yes.
Ann Barbour (06:41)
awkward for either my girlfriends or my guy friends. so anyhow, so five years, no kids. We both worked, everything was an even playing field. We were equally supporting each other. And then we decided to start having kids. And we were moving at the time from Dallas to Pittsburgh. And all of a sudden, all of the dynamics changed. We went from.
Curt Cronin (07:02)
literally
it was epic still like honeymoon story all the way until
Ann Barbour (07:07)
Pretty much solid five years of really a lot of and equal response. Like I said, it really felt like a partnership and that felt like invincible at the time. So the big pause is, yeah, I think I blow my dad a lot.
Curt Cronin (07:21)
First of all, let's celebrate that. Muslims
never experienced that to start with. So the fact you had that, it must have been unbelievable then to realize that, to have it feel opposite. tell us about that journey.
Ann Barbour (07:37)
Yeah, so this is the middle journey that I could never have predicted or seen. In hindsight, there was some clue that drinking wasn't a good fit for him in terms of incidences. But as responsibility increased, as the need to provide increased, we decided that I was going to stay home, just like our parents did. We didn't really actually put much thought into it. All of a sudden, the burden of money became 100 % his.
And this, I really say that I lost identity at the time because I didn't know who, I didn't have enough self-reflection or self-awareness at the time or self-confidence, all of it really, to be like, I have the tools to be awesome at this. And I was, right? Like it would, there were things in hindsight that I did well and there were just things in hindsight that I was awful at. But as the drinking increased,
my desire to control, fix and save went into like hyper mode. And my own family will can tell you this the best. I'm pretty good at the people please around the outside world, but my own family would be like, yeah, she sucks when she gets focused in like in a warrior mode and she wants to like save something. And because it was.
Curt Cronin (08:54)
impact that when you
said you go from kind into unstoppable force? that what you mean?
Ann Barbour (09:00)
Yeah, I'll blow through the door. I'll do all kinds of things. mean, there were stories of just an energy that takes over me. And with that focus and that laser lightness, I directed it towards saving and fixing him with an energy that, know, so as much as he was dealing with his own stuff and then he had me coming with him. And that was just a combustible, you know, terrible moments, embarrassing moments with family and Christmas Eve dinners and...
slamming doors and that was me, that was not him.
Curt Cronin (09:34)
So
your intent was clean to save and through control, right? But that was your intent. And I'm guessing we need to grab Joe, but I'm guessing that's not his experience of your intent.
Ann Barbour (09:42)
Yes.
No, no, no, no, no, no. It was all, was all, was him responding to my desire to control him, tell him how to be, tell him how to exist in the world, to make me comfortable, to make me, you know, at ease. And, and, and like I said, because I was doing it from love, I justified every action, good and ugly. And it was, it was, it was an internal war that like,
By the time it got to 2012, I fast forward, mean, the details don't really make a difference. It was a sliding scale of how am I still here? Why am I still here? I asked two people in my life that I would have probably made a change, and they both came back to me with, you know, down deep inside, why you married him, and you know there's gold there. And if you can walk away clean and not angry, you know, I was like, there's no way I can do that.
And so.
Curt Cronin (10:45)
And why was that?
Ann Barbour (10:48)
because I put too much, my stubbornness was, I, there's a lot of I in this, I put too much into it and I'm not gonna walk away so someone else reaps the benefits of my hard work. I mean, you're really getting to see me in this, which, yes, the way, the skillful and unskillful, unfortunately, or fortunately, I think it's all in hindsight a gift. And I just remember trying everything and being so, Joe uses this phrase with,
Curt Cronin (11:01)
I think I see them warrior. I love it.
Ann Barbour (11:17)
his addiction is we were just so sick and tired of being sick and tired. Like we had the awareness that we were super unhealthy, but we were both riddled with fear of leaving the marriage as it was into what happens if we're not fighting for it. Fighting for it felt like it was control. Fighting for it like it felt purposeful. And it was until it wasn't, until we were just both sad and lonely on the inside. And I didn't...
That's a reflective statement. That's probably not how we felt in the moment. Cause in the moment when I said, you know, you go or you lose us, like I'm clear as day. you know, for the people who go to rehab multiple times, God bless them and their family system, but you have a one time deal with me. That's in hindsight, knowing what I know about addiction, I happened to get, there's a lot of grace in my story because he actually has stayed sober since 2012.
Curt Cronin (12:16)
Wow.
And so tell me, it's deeply intimate to you. So you say 2012, like what was the moment? What was the event? What was the catalytic shift from this kind of what you described as a long slide into what was the point where, you know, the point of resolution or the point of, never again, or this has to be different. Because I think that's important for all of us to understand because like.
Ann Barbour (12:18)
So, yeah.
you
sure.
Curt Cronin (12:41)
We know we've all come into these situations where all of a sudden, and you know, many of my stories where we start out facing due North and then over time we just make incremental, you know, as Jordan from the last podcast always says, infinitesimal courage, right? We make these little decisions along the way that suddenly we wake up and we're like, how did we end up facing due South? And so all of us have been there. So thank you for your incredible courage to share this intimate story. And so we can really.
either with you, what was that moment that all of a sudden, like, was it a tiny straw that broke the camel's back or was it like some, what was the shift for you internally? I guess what was the external event? What was the internal event?
Ann Barbour (13:22)
You know, all along I was listening to my head and my logic and my reason, and then I was trying to out think the situation. And the specific moment was he called me from his office drunk and I had a flash. I would say it was an intuitive flash. Something's gonna happen. gonna hurt himself, hurt the car. Like I just had, he's gonna get in a car.
And I went into my hyper, this is, we can no longer do what we're doing. It just, was, there was a sense that something bad was on the horizon and it had to stop in that moment. I picked up the phone and called a family, a friend, a very good friend who came over and we went together. Cause I actually didn't feel safe at the time going on my own just because of the way the drinking had taken hold of his, just everything really. And
He had gone, he had been going in hindsight, he'd been going to AA for six months. I called his sponsor and we had, we had, we had it. It wasn't a planned intervention, but it was an intervention. Like we're done with this because there was too much at risk. Safety of our kids, safety of him, safety of any other beautiful human in a wrong place at wrong time. Like it just became super clear to me and it wasn't, it wasn't anything except for,
we've let this go way beyond the point that it should be and we're done. And I was also emotionally, I mean, was physically scared, like I wasn't scared of him, but I was scared something bad was gonna happen. And emotionally, I knew that we could never go back to what we were doing. Like it just wasn't in service of any of us.
Curt Cronin (15:06)
So if I if I hear you even in the moment and I love the clarity of you, you're completely in logic control head center, even from that space. There was a moment that you had that revelation, something's going to happen. So even from that place, you've switched to heart center sound like to me and said, like, regardless of where I am, I have to act from love. I have to act from how do I help us not to perpetuate the situation? Is that?
Or help me, is that, hear correctly?
Ann Barbour (15:37)
Yeah,
I would say heart and gut both. Like it was like this strong fem like for my, for me, from, cause I had been ignoring, and this is separate, but you know this, but I've had, two near death experiences of me not listening to my body during all of this time. So.
Curt Cronin (15:54)
I think
it's completely related because to me it feels like you had that knowing at the same time. So please, you can have many impossible things that became inevitable. I think it's related and important.
Ann Barbour (15:57)
Yes.
Right. So in 2006, I was ignoring my own signals to take care of the family, you know, be a good mother, be a good wife. Our son had a doctor's appointment that I didn't want to miss, had waited for for six months. And, but they'd been tracking me. I'd been somewhat responsible, but I was tired of going to doctors and having an inconclusive thing. And the reason it's important to me to listen to my body and my intuition is because
They wheeled me in for a partially ruptured appendix. And my last call that I got went to voicemail, because Joe was working at the time. And I went under, having never been under, only to find out that I was completely septic.
my ovaries had fallen in my pelvis and the rest of the organs that are around your appendix had moved of their own device to the left-hand side to really save my life. And so it was the first time where, I mean, of course I take multiple reps because I'm a slow learner, but I'm steady, but slow. I know, but having grace for that, right? Like, you know, the whole thing. So I remember waking up and she was,
Curt Cronin (17:09)
think all of us, yes.
Ann Barbour (17:18)
The nurse kissed me on the head in a weird way. The surgeon is laughing to tell me how disgusting I was. And I was sitting there thinking, what just happened? Thank you for the honesty. And that took a long time to integrate and process that the gift of the wisdom of the body to be able to move away from septicity. And it wasn't a full blown, it was like this slow oozing thing. it wasn't like typical.
Curt Cronin (17:27)
Thank you for the honesty.
And so if I caught
it and heard it, so for months you've been building that, there's symptoms. And your head was saying, I'm fine. I'll get it out. And your body said, if I can't get to that furthest 12 inches in the universe, there's maybe a little bit further. But if I can't get the signal to end logic, then I'm going to reconfigure the body to protect itself until we can get her the signal, get the signal through.
Ann Barbour (17:50)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Right.
It's completely aligned and it's, mean, and the more I tried to control, the more the body was screaming at me. But of course, being only in my head with logic and reason, you know, and those things are totally useful and skillful, except for I was just, like, again, I had been hospitalized in December for maybe appendicitis. Like we were tracking it, but in this moment, I was over it. I was self-diagnosing. I'd gone on the internet and figured out what I took control, which is never.
ever a good. Like on so many levels, I have learned this lesson in a painful way. So body wisdom is super important to me. in that moment in 12, skip to 12, I'm like, oh, I've been here before. I've ignored before. And it meant near death. Like for me, I don't want to do that again. And so
Yeah, so I just decided whatever was ahead of us was worth the risk of losing everything. And the result.
Curt Cronin (19:17)
So it sounds like
in both those places, then you tapped into your inner knowing and allowed that to guide you. And that's antithetical to me to what you shared before of like trying to have complete control and trying to map out. And I love you and I both of the Einstein quote of, there's no one decision make either. Everything's a miracle or nothing's a miracle. So from what you're sharing, sounds like the deepest essence of it for anyone going through this or anything like it is.
Ann Barbour (19:37)
Yeah. Yes.
Curt Cronin (19:46)
As we get into tight situations, there's a tendency to grab for control. Control is contraction from who we are, because we start to now shrink because we're at risk. And so we're trying to shrink. There's fight or flight. So now we're shrinking from where we were. And so the condition continues to get worse. So whether it was physical health, whether, same thing, if I get scared in the seals, scared in an operation, if I shrink and collapse, then that leaves a void. And now everyone's going to shift into.
reactive instead of proactive. so if I allow that to happen, then all of a sudden the confidence, the trust for the entire team is broken. in the deepest moments, that's where it's often easier to have heroic courage and infinitesimal courage. In the deepest moments, there seems to be, we reignite our access to that little voice that we've lost. And so to me, I don't think we can ever be disconnected from source, but we can get stuff in the way. That's why.
all your disadvantaged people with hair, you know, I'm directly connected to source now. And so, but that to me is the essence of what you're sharing across both of those situations is there was a moment like, and my desire for control and my fear I've contracted and not listened to what the, that inner whisper that I must listen to. And now I'm going to do it.
Ann Barbour (20:45)
is that what it is?
Yes, and it's one of its.
I guess I just leave with like deep gratitude for wisdom that's beyond sometimes my logical brain that is taking me in a path that is not meant for me.
Curt Cronin (21:27)
I think all the time, not just sometimes, but I agree.
Ann Barbour (21:29)
Yeah, I agree. I agree with that. And just to help the listeners understand, there's many stories within the next thing, the biggest, the thing that I think helped us have a chance, as I've listened to a lot of stories of a lot of marriages, of spouses or partners coming out of rehab, is it's a really awful environment. It's actually a new beginning. And so like that 2012 was one of the new beginnings that we've had.
And at that point since I thought the marriage was dead, I just said, hey, I have no aspiration for believing that this is going to work. I just believe that I believe I love you. I believe that the kids need a father that's healthy. You have a year. I don't want to talk about our marriage. I have no interest in talking about marriage. There's nothing left to talk about. So you work your sobriety. I'll work me.
And you know, in a year, let's have a discussion to see how we feel about each other because what's best is that we're all healthy. Like I knew that on a level and I knew I didn't want to talk about it or make any decisions in the moment. And what I didn't realize in hindsight, the gift I gave or the space I created for something to emerge new, I didn't realize that's what I was doing. But by surrendering,
the marriage, like really thought it was done. I was sure it was done.
And then I remember a year being like, huh, there's a glimmer of hope. There's something different in both of us, by the way, of course, two players in that one. And it was all about surrendering to the control of him and trusting my intuition and trusting my love with boundaries and trusting my clarity to be, I mean, that was a ton of work for me as well.
I think that I fought a lot with having fought for so long. I didn't want to fight anymore. didn't want to start a fighting for it. So I had to resource and find new ways to find the the creative, the creation of the new marriage, which was kind of the spark that fueled us to keep going and keep trying was how that's interesting or, that's a little better. Because I think in the early days when people come home, they just want them fixed or different or they're done. And it's a totally fair.
energetic space, but it just isn't, it isn't the reality of what it is. Cause it really is like a clean new beginning where you're like, Whoa, you know, I used to say to him, was like, what are we going to do at night? We're to go to yogurt every night for dinner. don't, can't eat frozen yogurt every night. anyhow, we would, we were just trying to play with like what, how would we, yeah. Well, trust me, it had its life, life cycle.
Curt Cronin (24:19)
If ice cream, maybe, maybe every night.
Well, let me
make sure I capture. the first, there was a moment that it became impossible from a place of control. Right. And then you said, I'm going listen to my intuition. I'm going to listen to my body and say, I'm going to now. I'm going to pick you up and we're going to like from that event. That's the surrender of control, but it's not yet allowing green shoots to start. so.
It sounds like there was a crucial phase. so the next then that was one phase. Next phase was. How do I? And I loved your. The use of surrender because it was how do I I'm going to surrender the time and control for me, right? Like in the end, I'm going to put my life on pause fundamentally for a year and not just pause, because I think if you were the same a year later than then then that one person changing might not work and but.
but in the essence of, hey, here's a year, then it seemed to be an unlock, please tell us more about like...
What was your intuition to do that? what, you know, there's one which is like, I want to keep you safe, right? We're not going to allow something bad to happen. But then what was your intuition on, hey, how do we potentially even start another spark or, or start a second marriage?
Ann Barbour (25:49)
Strangely enough, was by not talking about it, there was not a plan with, there wasn't a known plan. It's not like I'm like, all right, now we're committing to trying to make this work again. It was really committing to independently becoming healthier versions of ourselves. We did commit to that. And then what happened from there was like another surrender because he may not have liked who I became as I am vice versa. And that was always the deal. Like if I become someone you don't like and you don't want to be with.
please, like, after all of this work and all of this pain, like, I want you to go be happy. And he feels the same for me, right? It's this, there had been so much pain and so much, you know, fighting that we just were like, if we're going to do this now, and that's what we committed to. I'm not sure that, does that answer the question? Like, we didn't, it's not like a cognitive thought, like, we're going to keep working on this. It was paying attention to
Are there shifts? Is there a commitment? Okay, we cycled back. Why did we do that? And then playing with the patterns and playing with how we both participated in the patterns. we kind of just built from there.
Curt Cronin (27:00)
So if there was, hey, we
made a commitment to each other and we got married. We have three children. We've been through the fires of hell together. hit a point where we said no more. And then we don't know what's next, but we owe it to ourselves to go do some work. And I love, because it'd be very easy to say, you go do some work.
Ann Barbour (27:04)
Yes. Yes.
Curt Cronin (27:21)
And then a year later, but if you've done no work and you're still in resentment, then there's no opening. So there has to be, we are going to go do some work. then, because I would think that the most human response would be, I've been wronged. You go work and you're going to live in the penalty box forever. that seems to me to be a huge
Ann Barbour (27:21)
I did.
Mm-hmm.
Curt Cronin (27:50)
leap of radical hope, right? A huge leap of grace. How did you come to that space?
Ann Barbour (27:59)
I'm not even sure there's a word to it, because it feels like...
Listen, if I was left to my own devices to think my way in and out of this thing, I would have failed that mission, right? It was, think you guys referenced Invisible Squadron. I feel like I have had moments of grace, the right people showing up saying just the right thing at the right time, and like a team of support. mean, between our parents supporting us in all the ways, and our friends, you know, it was just so much bigger than us.
And there was this level of trust, faith, grace, humbleness that
we've gotten this far and like, it didn't feel finished. And it goes back to intuition. It's like, if I really am paying attention and getting out of my head, didn't feel finished yet. And so if it ever got to finish, we agreed that we would look at each other and say, I mean, and I could be done and he could not be, right? Like it just didn't happen to be that way. But like really in service of, is this what we really, really want? And what do we get to see if we stay? And again, I have
I think there's...
It's part of the service piece why I care so much about helping others is because we've just been given this grace in a way that it feels of service and it feels like a hope story. people need hope stories. It's just as simple as that. you know, like, the thing I didn't say, because you're like, when you said what about the one year, if I'm being radically honest with you.
I shifted saving my husband to saving my kids first.
Right. didn't, I mean, I was working on myself, but I was kind of like working light. Like I was like, cause it maybe wasn't all my fault. Cause as someone who was an addict to create all these conditions, wasn't my fault. Even though I can now say that I was fully participating in, in, in the team sport of our marriage. but at the time, you know, I was like, it's not mine, you know, you know, and I kind of had this like thing, but I did, I did shift to and.
Curt Cronin (30:10)
Welcome to the team.
Ann Barbour (30:24)
Marriage has its interesting dynamics because you can be really angry. And then when you over, when you don't have good boundaries with your kids, you can end up in some situations that incite fear that you've never had before. So there were things that happened. if you fast forward again to 19, this is like another evolution, but it's probably, we were married in 92.
And I can tell you, we were fully aligned as parents in 2019. I mean, I know people are just rolling their eyes like, what took you so long? It took us a long time. And we laugh with people all the time. like, well, parenting was not, I mean, our children, we're so proud of our three sons, like amazing humans, but we were like, how did we get through that one? And then there's more grace around the way. So I don't know. just feel like we've stayed in, we've committed to it.
Curt Cronin (31:20)
I think your radical honesty
was the part that connected for me. Cause I was like, I could not yet figure out, okay, how did you act from that much grace? But my favorite lesson from the seals is we'll all do more for others and will for ourselves. And so when you connected it to your kids, was like, at first I'm so wounded that it's not about us. You made it by your kids and that gave you a common purpose that allowed you to start there. Hey, we don't know about us, but
we know we have three children that we love and that we want the best for. It's like I tell my kids all the time, there's only two humans in the plant. Their only mission in life is that your lives are better than theirs. And so it sounds like that was the common thread that, no matter what's happening with us, we can align around, we want the best for these three young men that we're bringing into the world. And then that gave that space for grace to unfold for, hey, if we can focus on them and we can get aligned on them, then, then.
Maybe we can align. that aligned?
Ann Barbour (32:22)
Yeah,
it's a great reflection that I think I had in knowing about, but maybe not some words. So I appreciate that. Yeah, it was always, if we had just left it to the two of us, you're right, the team, the family team, the whole thing was definitely, it was aligned. It was so, like looking back, it was so messy too. And you were like, how can...
So much good come from so much of a mess and things that you would never choose for family members to have to go through or different things. so, yeah, it's all an impossible story that just feels like.
There's grit, grace, resilience, humility, but there's also like, okay, now what are you gonna do with this? How are you gonna serve something else? Because it feels like a constant evolution that just keeps building on itself and making it to be something more out there.
Curt Cronin (33:31)
we brought alignment with the children in. And one of the most fascinating revelations for Jules and I has been my assumption of we're going to parent the kids this way, her assumption, and then we realized I wasn't in her house growing up, nor was she in mine. And so that was one of the most fascinating assumptions is most of our conflicts weren't actually for us. It was from the lineage of parenting that we had come from. that's as we talk to our kids now, it's hey, that whole bunch of things went right with a whole bunch of fear.
your lineage in order for you to be here today. They survived long enough. So let's not start at zero. Let's see if we can start on the shoulders of all these giants. Was that journey part of your healing process? Was it the service to the dynamism of the requirements of the kids? I know that you're ahead of us. So we just hit the 16, 14, 12 and the massive humbling shift.
you know this, but for the audience, is infinitely easier to command seals than run a household, right? Because they're logical, competent, know what they want to do, rambunctious, but follow orders and mission. And it's fascinating if I show up the same way today that I did a week ago, I'm obsolete, right? It's, it's, it's beyond, if it's something that worked for Rach, it's not going to work for Abb, and if it worked for Abb, it's definitely not going to work for Olivia. And so it's...
It's the most fascinating and humbling and it does take a village. I'm humbled that even there are many things that if Jules and I can convey it, we're too close in and the intensity of the energy is too hot for them to pick up. so that requires to hear it from grandma. Do they hear it from from, you know, a dear friend? Do they hear it from different sources? So it really does take a village. But it was that was that a part of your healing process for your marriage?
Ann Barbour (35:23)
yeah. Yeah, because it was the first...
The first time.
We weren't, it took us so long, because we were so young to undo what our, doing what our parents did without like putting a lot of thought and energy into what we wanted to create together and being very loyal to that lineage. Right? So, and there's a lot of good in it. As you said, it got us here today. I mean, like, I love it all, but the,
It's so funny to ask all the questions in hindsight, that in the moment you're just going, I mean, I guess part of I'm struggling with it because like in the moment it was just survival and I was doing the best I could and I knew I wasn't giving up and I was being stubborn. You know, a lot of it was just, a lot of it was survival mode and only in hindsight, looking backwards at all of those paths and all of those bumps, could I tell you what it was? But I think that having a great supporting
team of mentors and teachers in the kids' lives in hindsight who picked up things that could save things to our kids that no one else could have. And then I think that the big flip for me was at one point I realized that I was learning at multiple rates way faster if I like tuned into what they were actually putting in front of me. Once my boundaries were clear about this is the parents, this is my house, and then I really realized what they were reflecting back to me and teaching, that
That definitely helped with the healing and helped alignment for Joe and I. And even to this day, we'll have a conversation with one of our kids. And I'll be like, no, they're not asking us to fix. They're actually just to listen, not our head. I mean, the greatest advice I ever got from my therapist was, you know, you're talking and I'm like, yeah, right? And she's like, stop talking. With your teenagers, nod your head.
say yes and say hmm and say interesting and say nothing else and I was like but but but but but and she was like try it and I tried it and I got way farther than any of my you know there was a time where I would open my mouth and they would they would just run or check out.
Curt Cronin (37:41)
We can stop the podcast now because I needed that lesson. I will go implement that immediately. I think it's really important what you said. I think when people are outside of a crisis, the tendency is to think,
and Joe must've had this unbelievable map that they made this decision in like, and, you're living with me. This is the third phase in my life where it's been, you know, a focused two to three months cycle where kind of day and night goes away. And it's just an intense field of every single step is guided, but not the way I would have thought. We're like, every single step is not very sexy, not very clean and feels like, but it is the only one. Right. And so it just one foot in front of the other, like,
messy is possibly fathomed to get to the end. then the end, to your point, it's difficult because everybody's like, you must have known the entire time. Like, no, no idea. Right. The further the further surrendered, the less we get to know in the future. Like everything unfolds in the moment. And that the desire for control can make it feel like terrifying or the other is OK unfolding. And so I can definitely tell which side of of the kind of one percent in or out I am based on based on.
if I take it as, okay, what's unfolding next versus not? And so I think that was an epic and accurate reflection from the end where it all worked out to what we don't get to know in the process of it.
Ann Barbour (39:06)
Yeah. And we still kind of have the commitment. We don't know if it works out. Like we're, we're not attached to any destination because what we, what we did, and I guess this maybe wasn't as much of a guiding light as anything was, is if we do today, right, and we do it really, really well and in all of its ugliness or imperfection, but we know at least like we do today, right, then tomorrow becomes a clear decision. Like instead of like being like, does this marriage work out 30 years from now? Or like all of that expectation, like I, it, we, we dialed it in.
much simpler. know we've talked atomic habits a lot recently, but like just taking the marriage day by day and like being like tomorrow will be really clear, especially initially in the drinking years. And as I was trying to figure out my boundaries and all that other stuff, like one day at time, I mean, that phrase is like incredibly powerful for, for the marriage and it keeps serving us and not having that like attachment to an expectation for an outcome actually makes the marriage way more interesting, way more fun and playful for us. And
And yes, we've gotten through some hard things, so we have the blessings of less intensity in this moment, but also kind of like, yeah, and something else is, aging parents, it's all there. So there's always something. So it's a matter of, for me, we're actually much better at just returning to center and recovering faster instead of getting to a destination out there in the future that we don't know that we even have the privilege of seeing. But it's like, just how can I?
get back to center, get really clean. The other day we had a flat tire situation and I just said to him, I was like, that was intense, I get it. But the way you talked to me reminded me of like when you were drinking. And I was like, this doesn't need a discussion, but I need to say it out loud to you so you know that like I'm clean and then I don't have to carry this for it. Because you know as women we like carrying things forward a couple of times. so, I mean, I'm not the only one, but anyhow, I can do that really seriously.
And, to the point of like just driving a point home where it's too much. And so I'm trying to get better at being really like clear and clean and making sure I say everything, but like not from a charged place. So I took 24 hours after we fixed the tire, you know, and, and said, just, you know, this doesn't need a discussion. Cause that's as big as, you know, he's like, Oh, let's get going for hours. So anyhow, so we're still working on it every day. Yeah.
Curt Cronin (41:25)
Please note, I'm pleading the fifth
on any comment on that. But the part that I love, and that was Connor and I talking on this way to the race yesterday was, all I need you to do today is ask, can I stay with this guy one more step? If I can do that for one more step for 1600 meters, then it'll be an awesome outcome. And I love that when you've embodied one of our favorite, you know.
Ann Barbour (41:29)
Yeah.
Curt Cronin (41:51)
principles, guess, is you're committed, not attached. How can I get even more committed and even less attached to the outcome? Because every time I get attached to the outcome, then whenever it doesn't go the way that I anticipated, which it never does, then I'm off. And so I love that note.
Ann Barbour (42:05)
Right?
No, I was just gonna say that, and I'm not gonna say the quote, right? But it's like, I think it's Buddhist, but where it's like, pain is real, but suffering is optional. The way I interpret it is like, the pain at the moment was real, and it was awful, and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. But my mind looping on it and re-storytelling and retelling the story, like that kind of suffering that I was creating, like so like, like,
separating that for me has actually been really helpful because I decided to stop telling some stories. I mean, I know we're talking about it here, but just because it brings up like all the other things and I'm like, I didn't really get clean on that. So maybe I should or shouldn't. So anyhow, it's just a funny thing about pain and suffering.
Curt Cronin (42:50)
So for anybody going through any trial that feels impossible, could be relational, it could be anything. What's before we pivot to the second half of the podcast? Do you have a parting shot or a line of wisdom you'd want to give them for if they're in that moment, if there are two-thirty in the morning target when they're like, hey, this feels impossible, what would you share with them?
Ann Barbour (42:56)
Yeah.
Yeah, it's, it's, if you're trying to control and tightening and feeling that contraction, you know, just consider what are my other options? Because that one where you're in a world where you're the only team, like if you were doing that with the seals and you were that, that would be like treating like you weren't part of a team. You were part of an eye. And I think that when I, so when I had that experience of I'm all alone, no one understands what I'm going through when I was alone. And so.
anything. And I think the great thing about all of this is that like you get to figure out what works for you. say that to people all the time. This is my story. This is what worked for me, but I don't necessarily think it works for everybody because we are so different and things do motivate us differently. So for me, you know, the shift is like anything I can do from presence that is different than the way I went and went and go to something, you know, I mean, I'm really trying to work on the word play and like, but play with like the work of being human, not like play frivolously and.
Curt Cronin (44:14)
You're trying to work on the word
Ann Barbour (44:16)
Work on the word, work on the word. So
Curt Cronin (44:16)
work.
Ann Barbour (44:18)
yeah, so I think that that's just, it's it. It's like go to, trust yourself. Actually trust yourself. Like for me, 56 turning 57. Trust the 57 years of life experiences. I think we forget to trust ourselves and we're trusting everything on the outside so intensely. So maybe I'd shift to that and be like, I'd love everyone to like reflect on how many awesome things they've gone through and realize that
that walking, that compounding interest of who you are is walking into every room and to feel empowered by that.
Curt Cronin (44:56)
So tell us what is impossible for you now. What's the signal you want to send out to see if you can find people that help you? You know, that small part that we can do and a huge part that has to unfold. What's your current quest?
Ann Barbour (45:08)
Hmm, I have a couple.
I think my biggest current quest, that is there's a lot of eye in this, it's part of the service is like, how do we go through something really hard like I've been through and totally.
let that version of yourself go. I'm reading a lot about women right now and like creating, being an elder versus elderly. There's a book called Haggitude. It's about hags with attitude. But it's like, what is in a service to me? How can I be of service? And I get caught in the big. so like big ideas and big things. And yeah, that would all be great if it works out. like, how do you shift?
from all the roles and this is I think something a lot of women at my age struggle with is like we've been a mom, we've been a wife, we've been a friend, we have all these things that we really create a lot of identity around and for me I'm not sure it's totally feels impossible because I'm hopeful about it but
It feels super hard and I can't see the way forward and it irritates me and I judge myself and I beat myself up. It's like, you've been all through all this. Why is this hard too? And so then I know I'm somewhere near where I need to be as far as something else.
Curt Cronin (46:32)
And what is that? Just to make sure I understand, what is that that feels so impossible now? Like serving at a big level or making or actually knowing that the small things are the things that make all the difference. And man, what came to me is our friend John Richards always talked about, if we do the small things, the big things will unfold. And I love Darren Hardy's compound effect, know, one penny, two penny, four penny, eight penny.
Ann Barbour (46:35)
What is what?
Yeah.
Curt Cronin (47:00)
And it's definitely that phase where I'm seeing it all over my life right now. This is where we don't get to see the next of the results of our work forever. And then all of a sudden, three decades later, there's an unbelievable compound effect that like, that unfolds that seems to be a overnight success. Three or four decades in the making.
Ann Barbour (47:15)
Yeah, right.
Right, and still, there's a lot of people retiring at this point. They talk about retirement. I guess I don't want to retire. So I don't know where I want to, right? It feels impossible to be like, I don't want to do what everyone else is doing. But I don't want to be alone, that fear of doing something different and not knowing where that's going. I don't know. I think this small reminding me to, yeah.
I get big ambitious and staying small is hard. And then the impact in your home and the impact with the people you love the most and how they remember you being with them, I don't want to lose sight of it. I'm afraid I could lose sight of that.
Curt Cronin (48:03)
If you get too involved in a quest. So if you get so involved in the quest that you forget about everything else that matters, because then the paradox of if I'm trying to do something big, then I not serve all of those closest to me in service of the utilitarian ends justify the means versus the, do we make this an integrated mission, right? Where it's work life balance, right? Where it's really taking those three marriages of marriage to self and our crazy roommate, marriage to another and intimate relationship, which from...
the past hour, an unbelievable focus and energy in creating the dyadic relationship that like I've been with Ann and Joe and had they not shared that story, I they're one of my five models for, hey, Jules and I are definitely in the second marriage. We're definitely rowing. There is chaos all over the house. The great news is our house is alive and it is pandemonium. so seeing you guys finish each other's sentences, like in being completely, you know, in that.
Ann Barbour (48:52)
Yes.
Curt Cronin (49:00)
flow state hive mind is unbelievable. so grateful when I'm with you to know that, you can go through the fires of hell and end here, right? Like that is the embodiment of radical hope, the embodiment of, okay, like the truth of it's not the...
Instagram story of our life was good, then great, then better, right? But like, hey, we had to go through the Cinderella story. Like, we found each other and it was awesome. And then like, then it wasn't awesome. And now it's epic again, right? The ultimate, the ultimate story. And so now it is. I think if you're you're you're hinting at, if I reflect it personally, it's okay.
I've got to recognize these amazing patterns throughout the course of my life and really get to see, here's what all the amazing humans have done to get me to here. And then now what's my Thor's hammer? What's mine to lift? What is the thing that, you know, that imposter syndrome comes in the most heavily as I see, you know, individuals saying, what is it that I want to do now that I can do anything, right? You can do whatever you want. Like your family's often running and doing amazing things. you know, so now what is it that I...
get to do, right? And what does that look like versus something I have to do? Because it's really easy. I remember that whole first aspect of my life, like running from scarcity. Am I fast enough, good enough? And then now, what if I'm pulled by abundance? How different is that? Is that an accurate?
Ann Barbour (50:24)
completely. And that control
comes with like a deep history of fear. If I'm not controlling and you know, it goes to safety and a bunch of things. And so like, what would it be like to totally surrender, I guess, totally surrender my big the control, it feels a little impossible. And I know that a little bit of it, you know, for keeping me alive, if I'm walking across the street and the cars, you know, coming or, you know, like all of that, but the stuff, there's a lot of old stuff that
just likes to stick around and letting it go and then not serve the situation. So I'm to that place where I know it and just like, I just like, yeah, get rid of that and then help serve and build beautiful communities.
Curt Cronin (51:11)
That feels like the pull forth. How can I best serve myself, my relationships and my profession inside of a mission-based ecosystem? And what would that look like?
Ann Barbour (51:22)
Yes, yes, that's exactly it.
What would that look like? Well, I think that.
the groundedness of the community at home. There's been a lot of fracture through our own fracturing. so rebuilding relationships and you know, it's an interesting time to try to go talk to people and build things. And so I imagine participating that way and then, you know, with the stuff with a key, any way we can serve and help guide anyone who is interested in, you know,
doing that, like holding all of it, but with like the humbleness of knowing in the moment what needs to be served and like, then rotating those three things. But I think that the greatest thing we can do is really in our own walls, really just create like, and finally creating the home I've always wanted to have with the energy I've wanted to have. And I'm getting grace to do it. And that almost feels like as important as anything right now.
and a gift.
Curt Cronin (52:34)
What does that look like for someone who's like, what's Ann's ideal home? Tell us what a day in life or what the essence of that is so they can.
Ann Barbour (52:44)
essence
of that is. it's an energetic place where people are happy to come into. They're not walking on eggshells. mean, it's a little based on what it was, right? And then creating the space for the freedom to just be whoever you are freely, all of us, without it being
Curt Cronin (52:46)
because you can see it in your face.
Ann Barbour (53:08)
like people trying to modulate and control how they experience each other in the family. Like, cause that's still kind of growing itself and we're playing with that. And it's, it's, it's how do we all, because I noticed that when the boys are maybe commenting to me on each other, that I want to be like, I want to get in and then I have to realize that I'm not. the home, the home just is a really, place to play safely with all the places maybe that they haven't felt safe to. And then,
And then bring that into the communities in which I get to play with because I think that we've all kind of forgotten how to be different and alive. I mean, we've been, the technology has got us so not alive and in storing aliveness into every space that I have the privilege of being in. That, it feels like.
Curt Cronin (54:00)
And so
what are Ann's best practices for aliveness at home? Or person relationship for all like, it's like, this is, think what in the end, all of us seek, right? That essence of aliveness. so you have any best practices that you've picked up that I think he's brilliant. said, everyone should pick up their own, but here's some that they could play with and find if they work for them or not.
Ann Barbour (54:04)
Bye.
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, for me, moving my body. So I do hot yoga, which they have awesome music. It's a hard class. It's not meant to be like, you know, it's definitely a Westernized version of it. And then there's the stillness. And so if I can get home and meditate after I do that, if I stack it that closely and I make sure that every day I'm just looking at my calendar and making sure I can fit it in, the beginning of the day is always the best. And I mean, I did a teaching
practicum with Jack Kornfield and Tara Brock on mindfulness and meditation. So I really have almost become more habitual with like anytime I can see nature, see the light and shadows, see the sunshine, see the moon, even the wind. Like I'm trying to get out in nature as much as I can and walk and walk without technology and just kind of listen and just kind of tune in. And if I can do those two things in a day.
I'm pretty, let up and pretty happy to roll. Yep. Thank you.
Curt Cronin (55:22)
Fantastic.
Anything you'd want to share with everyone as your final, how they can help you to accomplish your current impossible mission to make it inevitable.
Ann Barbour (55:31)
Yeah, no, I mean, we all have blind spots, right? I have mine. if you, anyone who sees my blind spots is welcome to share them with me. Like, I think that there's a fear of telling people when they see things in it, you know, with you, whether it's work or friends or play or family, everyone wants to avoid or just make everything nice. And don't do that with me. Like, let's play and become better together.
Curt Cronin (55:58)
I love that ultimate courage, right? So you just raise your hand like, hey, if I want to get better, like, please share with me feed forward because no one cares about the past, but what's the feed forward? How do we help, you know, manifest what's even more powerful going forward? And I believe that's what's required in communities as we can speak to each other. We can help each other to get to places that none of them could get to.
Ann Barbour (56:06)
you
Curt Cronin (56:20)
and of themselves, right? It was that after action view in the SEALs where everybody checks their ego at the door, you know, and literally have the potato sack and like, leave your ego here and then step in because it's crucially important. And we all share the deepest truth of what happened because if we don't in that blind spot, someone could get injured or killed 15 minutes later and we launch again. so, you know, that was the privilege we had in the SEALs was we had a known expiration date, but we all have that.
Ann Barbour (56:39)
Right.
Curt Cronin (56:46)
here. And so it's so easy to think it's not today, right? And so we don't get to know. And so how do we continue to evolve, you know, as if it matters every single moment? Because it does.
Ann Barbour (57:01)
Because it does. Yes. All in.
Curt Cronin (57:06)
Awesome. Thank you.
Ann Barbour (57:08)
Thank you.
Scott Schimmel (57:11)
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